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Google claims copyright on employee side projects

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Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's nonsense. In Germany the default for contracts is that you need your employers permission to do side projects. Germany is in the EU.

That's nonsense. > In Germany the default for contracts is that you need your employers permission to do side projects. You generally need to notify your employer if you take on a second (paid) job. The employer may veto that employment, but must specify a good reason (you can't be in competition, exceed the total legal working hours, bring ill repute to your employer, ...), but the default is "allow". Clauses that r…

That wasn't my experience, but most employers actually referenced that case in their contract, so I am not sure what the default rule is.

Also, a second job is one thing. What about ownership of things you produce in your spare time? I don't think the former necessarily covers the latter.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#372
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's absurd for any company to say they're going to attract passionate programmers, and then expect them to just roll over and give up projects that were started before they even joined at the company. This is not necessarily "give up". You still own the code that was written before you joined the company. If it is an open source project, your code contributions after you start work will still be open source. They…

> This is not necessarily "give up". "Giving up" is an ambiguous term here and I should have tried to be more specific. But I wasn't just referring to ownership. If I'm working on a project, and joining Google means I need to stop working on it for 3-4 years, then I've effectively given up that project, in the sense that it's no longer going to be maintained or stay relevant. I'm unlikely to go back to a 3-4 year old…

> "Giving up" is an ambiguous term here and I should have tried to be more specific. But I wasn't just referring to ownership. If I'm working on a project, and joining Google means I need to stop working on it for 3-4 years, then I've effectively given up that project, in the sense that it's no longer going to be maintained or stay relevant.

And what I'm saying is that for an open source project, in general that doesn't happen. And if you're not sure, you negotiate that up front. I did that when I started work for IBM, for example. And it was more than just copyright issues; it included stuff like, "look, I'm one of the chairs of the ipsec working group, and I'd like you to pay for me to travel to IETF meetings so I can finish out my commitment to IETF, even though that doesn't have that much to do with the IBM Linux Technology Center". Everything is negotiable; they might say no, but you'll never know until you ask.

More generally, I'm having trouble thinking of situations where you (a) can't take a side project and release it as open source, and (b) you're wanting to keep it proprietary except for "wanting to earn $$$ on a side project" while also drawing from a big company.

> Sure, unless your company is Oracle and they decide X years later to say, "actually we own the code and we didn't authorize it to be Open Sourced, and that means the entire project is infringing."

Nope, it doesn't work that way. Once code is released under an open source license, that can't do a "I take it back!" thing. So long as there is an explicit open source releasing policy, and you followed it, then you are an authorized agent of the company when you released changes (including git commits) whose copyright is owned by the company. I can use fancy legal terms like "latches" and "equitable defenses", but the principle is quite simple: "No backsies."

Oracle can say that no new code will be released for Open Solaris, but they can't change their mind on the Open Solaris code already released under an open source license. Again, programmers really should understand basic IP law. It's not that complicated....

> It's also ignores the fact that a nontrivial portion of Silicon Valley was built on top of people who didn't accept those terms.

Um, if it's in an employment contract, and you signed it without reading it --- sorry, but I have very little sympathy for you. If you signed it, you agreed to it.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#373
post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is not necessarily "give up". "Giving up" is an ambiguous term here and I should have tried to be more specific. But I wasn't just referring to ownership. If I'm working on a project, and joining Google means I need to stop working on it for 3-4 years, then I've effectively given up that project, in the sense that it's no longer going to be maintained or stay relevant. I'm unlikely to go back to a 3-4 year old…

> "Giving up" is an ambiguous term here and I should have tried to be more specific. But I wasn't just referring to ownership. If I'm working on a project, and joining Google means I need to stop working on it for 3-4 years, then I've effectively given up that project, in the sense that it's no longer going to be maintained or stay relevant. And what I'm saying is that for an open source project, in general that does…

> if it's in an employment contract, and you signed it without reading it --- sorry, but I have zero sympathy for you.

Arguing that employees should read their contracts, and arguing that the terms in those contracts aren't problematic, are two entirely separate things.

I agree with you on the first point, I disagree with you on the second.

> So long as there is an explicit open source releasing policy, and you followed it, then you are an authorized agent of the company when you release changes

This is the key part. If Oracle has a policy like Google's, and if Oracle decides to let you release that code, and if you follow the process correctly, then you're fine. In practice, this assumes a great deal. You're arguing that as long as a company

a) has an official Open Source release policy, and

b) agrees to let you use that policy,

then there's no problem. And, sure. As long as Oracle explicitly gives you permission to contribute code to Open Source projects, nothing bad will or can happen[0]. But that's a very different thing than arguing that it's fine for employers to retain complete control over

a) what that policy is, and

b) what projects are allowed under it.

It's like claiming that if no abuse happens, there's no problem. It's true, but doesn't mean anything. The issue is that under the terms Google proposes, there is nothing preventing abuse. You're entirely at Google's mercy over whether or not you can contribute to any project, proprietary or Open Source.

The issue is that when you sign those terms, you no longer have a guarantee that you can contribute to anything. And if you operate outside of whatever policy exists, you are opening yourself up to exactly the kind of abuse I describe. That's what I was trying to argue with Oracle: not that you'll have future problems if you follow an official policy, but that Open Source licenses are not enough to save you in the absence of an official policy, and that Open Source licenses are not enough to save you if you get rejected from that official policy.

> I'm saying is that for an open source project, in general that doesn't happen.

Except in the case of OP, where they were forced to find a separate maintainer for their project. You're not the only person to suggest here that this never happens, but... it did. You can argue that OP should have negotiated that up front before they took the job. I would tend to agree with you on that.

But outside of OP's own responsibility, is it good for anyone else, anywhere, that they were forced to abandon that project? Not, "what could they have done differently", not "do they bear any responsibility" -- is it good for the software industry as a whole that Google was able to do what it did?

I would argue no. I would argue the entire history of Silicon Valley says that allowing these kinds of terms is counterproductive to maintaining a healthy software industry, and that ideally labor laws in California would treat "we own everything" clauses the same way they treat noncompete agreements.

----

[0]: Except that you won't be able to re-license later, and you won't be able to contribute to projects that force you to assign copyright, and in the case of GPL software you write you'll be bound to the same GPL terms as every other user. But those are admittedly probably minor concerns for most projects.

It is worth re-asking the question though -- if code ownership doesn't matter for Open Source projects, why does Google want it? Why is it important for Google to own code contributions their employees make to Open Source projects?

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#374
post #360
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's absurd for any company to say they're going to attract passionate programmers, and then expect them to just roll over and give up projects that were started before they even joined at the company. What I find more absurd are companies that want to hire employees that are passionate and work on side projects but also require employees to sign extremely broad “we own your IP” contracts. It’s like they are saying…

The industry isn't moving towards this. The IP agreements I signed at start-ups in 1994, 1998, 1999, and so on all had functionally identical terms . And more, like the duty to in good faith pursue patents whenever merited and assist IP attorneys with the creation of filings and sign over patent rights for nominal sums. [Edit formatting and typos.]

I wasn’t referring to the IP clauses when I said moving towards. I meant it in the context of employers glorifying passion and moving the baseline job requirements towards having projects outside of work.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#375

For what it's worth, this is something we've struggled with at New Vector (vector.im), the company we set up to keep the core Matrix.org dev team gainfully employed. On one hand, we don't want a nightmare where a rogue employee goes and claims that the work they did on the day job is actually their personal IP and tries to relicense or patent it somehow. On the other hand, 90% of what we do is open source and it's cr…

The problem is "related to the business of the company". For a small company, that may seem reasonable, because the company probably only does one or two things. However, for a large company like Google, that basically means "everything".

In my opinion, the right approach is to instead talk about your work duties at the company. If you work on your own time on something unrelated to your work duties, but related to someone else's at the company, you should still get to keep full rights to your work. If you weren't asked to do that work for your job, why would the company have a right to the result, even if they find they have some interest in it?

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are also famous and had a big OSS presence before joining Google, you worked on Google blessed OSS software while employed there. You are in no way typical of the bullshit other folks have to go through.

The Twitter OP also had his random OSS project approved in IARC and he wasn't famous. He also even says the workflow today is much more permissive than it was when he joined (aka, it's gotten better ) Then again, twitter OP also is attempting to apply boolean logic to legal documents as if that whole "BUT TECHNICALLY" bullshit actually flies in court. He had a bad experience on 1 of 2 projects, decided to contribute…

I had two projects go through IARC. One was approved (after a month or two wait IIRC) explicitly because Google wants nothing to do with console hacking projects, emulators, etc. The other was a completely normal OSS project that ships in Ubuntu these days, and it was denied with no explanation or recourse.

It's gotten better, but that doesn't negate my experience. I'm sharing it now, and didn't in the past, because if Google really made a mistake in their Irish contracts in favor of their employees, I didn't want to jinx it for other people. I assume the contract has changed enough by now that it doesn't matter. I also hold no grudge with Google, I left on excellent terms and otherwise enjoyed my experience there - but this IP ownership BS was one of the things that tipped the scale towards moving on to other things in my life.

I was retaliated against, by being explicitly forbidden from ever actually using the relevant corporate processes that other employees enjoyed. I was lucky my contract turned out to be in my favor, or else I might have just left the company at that point.

As for the Boolean logic stuff, you don't need to know what Boolean logic is to be able to read an "or" in a contract. I simply used Boolean logic to explain the subtle difference between my Irish contract and California law. No Irish judge is going to look at my contract and say "well, actually, this is CLEARLY intended to be like California law so that applies here now". The contract, as written, gave me the right to my own work as long as I didn't use company property or do it as a direct result of my work at the company. Just because I explained it in CS terms doesn't mean I'm riding on some obscure technicality.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#377
post #273

My current employer has a standard "you own anything you do in your spare time, as long as it's not done on work equipment" clause in the contract. Quite a few people here have side projects, discussion about them is open, and the culture is that of respect for these people and the projects. I get the impression that the company likes people with the motivation and energy to engage in side projects, and practically e…

It's admirable how your employer has the contract clause excluding ownership of any work you do on your own time, on your own equipment. To me, that seems like it should be the standard, common sense. I noticed Dunbar's number (~150 people) is sometimes mentioned, to attempt to explain how trust in relationships break down in large corporations. I'm curious, may I ask roughly how big your employer is?

It should definitely be the standard. I agree, it should not even be worthwhile mentioning.

It was still refreshing to see.

We talk about Dunbar's number quite a bit, actually. We're about 2X that, enough for several tribes.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#378
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's Google imperialism. We don't have a similar clause at Microsoft if you use your own equipment and your own time.

Having seen the employment agreements for both, I can confidently say that Google's clause is the same as Microsoft's. Microsoft may be less strict about enforcing it, but the language was the same.

It's entirely possible that at Microsoft nobody cares and it's an unwritten rule that you can do what you want, while Google has explicit policies which have the effect of chilling things further when they don't work.

Let people do nothing and they will do whatever they want. Let people do a little bit and they'll be scared out of doing any more, for fear of having that little bit taken away, or being made to look ungrateful for what they were allowed. Which is exactly what happened/is happening to me, when cdibona banned me from the corp processes, and now when tytso etc are saying I should've been thankful.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#380
post #42

Does society accept this behaviour outside tech? Imagine that a Michelin restaurant would claim copyright on the dishes cooked by the chef in his spare time. Or that the big farm would ask for a piece of those carrots grown in the back yard.

Yes this is extremely common outside of "tech." Almost all large employers will make all employees (even the janitor) sign an ownership of inventions agreement as a condition of employment. Here's an example of such an agreement from a pharmaceutical company I found (section 2.3 and 2.4): https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1245104/000119312512... See also: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-sid…

I've now had two long-term jobs at large employers, both hospital systems, neither made me sign an IP agreement of any sort. On the university side there absolutely are provisions with faculty in terms of IP ownership. But for hospital employees, it just isn't a consideration. They're not in the IP business, they're in healthcare.
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