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Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

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Re: Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

#311

10 years in the trenches here. Apple’s smart home protocol famously does not support multiple users. Amazon is choosy on what features you can implement (turn on alarms but not turning them off, locking doors but not unlocking them). Google loves using radio hardware no one else supports. Zigbee has delightful legacy security vulnerabilities and consortium drama. I look forward to these groups putting aside their dif…

> Apples smart home protocol famously does not support multiple users. Can you clarify this? I set up my "home" and was able to share it with my wife, who sees all of the same controls in the Home app that I do. We don't have any family sharing, etc set up.

I think that they mean there is no way for your wife (or more practically, a kid) to see a different set of controls, it's all or nothing.

Re: Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

#312
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said (and you touched on this) the average consumer is not prepared to deal with any of that, maybe that will change but as of today it's not easy or even possible with most consumer-grade hardware. Right, at one point it looked like something like UniFi could show the way there, but Ubiquiti unfortunately has turned into a development dumpster fire and really lost its way, and I don't know of anyone else atte…

I haven't followed the AmpliFi line closely to know if it has easy VLAN support but yeah... I really like the UniFi offerings but a fulling working UniFi system (excluding the UDM) costs ~$800 from my last estimate. I'm saving for it but that's cause I'm a weirdo who enjoys those kinds of things. If you don't mind me asking what networking stack are you using? Also thank you for the very well thought out and reasoned…

Sorry for the slow reply, and I see you've got (and made) one other response. As far as what stack I'm using, on my test lab it's a big mix of course, but my main personal stack right now is UniFi dating back from quite a few years ago. However, I really want to reemphasize my "dumpster fire" aside: I strong DON'T recommend getting into UniFi right now if you're starting fresh, or at least, if you do be really careful about it. It hasn't been that obvious from the outside if you didn't know what to look for, but from an community and heavy use perspective it's clear Ubiquiti has been having major internal developer issues for a few years now at least. The CEO is apparently pretty toxic, but whatever the reasons are the result has been a major stagnation of the line, both for hardware and software, rapidly increasing technical debt, and a lot of extremely confused moves that seem to amount to easy bikeshedding because real engineers weren't available. I started to get into some of the gory details but am just deleting that paragraph, it's not really relevant here. But to take a specific example, that security gateway you were looking at, which is necessary if you want to use UniFi for L3 features, basics like DNS (which incidentally is also half-assed) etc, is a good 5 years old now. They introduced the "UniFi Security Gateways" and then refreshed them... never. The software for those is stagnant, and core software (like Strongswan for VPN) are often horribly out of date. It chokes doing much of anything interesting, would be obliterated in perf by a current RPi. The switches aren't in quite so dire straights, but for the money they too now have the smell of obsolescence. Ubiquiti has no decent L3 story for 2019/2020, no move to competitive faster networking, and a lot of cruft built up because they like to introduce new things but not just update and replace old ones.

Having said all that, their PtP/PtMP links are still nice. Their APs are solid overall, and do have nice industrial design (though no word on WiFi 6, which for a new install I'd consider fairly important). The interface has degraded significantly over the last few versions, but it's still better and more unified than any other I know of. I mean, I'm still running it myself after all. But if you go that route know what you're getting into and look hard for open box and used stuff that'll be cheap. And I'd honestly suggest not bothering with the cloud key and just running the controller yourself, on an RPi or similar if you want something dedicated but cheap or else spin up a VM or container, or even just run native I guess if you've got a server you run otherwise. The CK is also ancient.

In summary: I adored UniFi, and the potential was(is?) fantastic, and their old vision was fantastic, and at one point they were a really solid venture all around. And I know of nothing else with the same vision either. Yet even so I'm expecting to have to dump it overall in the next few years, which sucks. But long bitter experience has taught me that glorious turnarounds are much more the exception than the rule :(.

Re: Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

#314

Interesting that Mozilla is not on the list. They are one of the few companies I'd genuinely trust with smart home data.

Especially since Mozilla has been working on WebThings which is home automation protocol over HTTP.

There is a place for both WebThings and this new protocol. WebThings is too heavy for low-power devices and mesh networks like Bluetooth and Thread. But would be nice to have standard API for web services and gateways. The ideal world would be this new protocol on the local network and WebThings across the internet.

Re: Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

#315
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't followed the AmpliFi line closely to know if it has easy VLAN support but yeah... I really like the UniFi offerings but a fulling working UniFi system (excluding the UDM) costs ~$800 from my last estimate. I'm saving for it but that's cause I'm a weirdo who enjoys those kinds of things. If you don't mind me asking what networking stack are you using? Also thank you for the very well thought out and reasoned…

Sorry for the slow reply, and I see you've got (and made) one other response. As far as what stack I'm using, on my test lab it's a big mix of course, but my main personal stack right now is UniFi dating back from quite a few years ago. However, I really want to reemphasize my "dumpster fire" aside: I strong DON'T recommend getting into UniFi right now if you're starting fresh, or at least, if you do be really carefu…

Holy shit this an amazing reply and I couldn’t be happier you took the time. I had read some about of the issues you you talked about but you highlighted even more.

I might go down the secondhand/used route if I do decide to do it. Right now I’ve got a single all-in-one router running LEDE and I like it but I’m not able to reach more than 60% of my fiber internet so I’ve been looking to upgrade. I decided that if I was going to throw a couple hundred at it I figured I might as well go all in.

It’s always sad to see a company throw away such a promising future. I saw their new AmpliFi “Alien” router and I’m half tempted to buy that and wait a few more years for a better option to present itself. Or even the UDM but it seems like a very odd offering to me... I guess I’ll keep looking, thank you again for the advice.

Re: Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

#316

Interesting that Mozilla is not on the list. They are one of the few companies I'd genuinely trust with smart home data.

They have their own IOT platform they are working on called WebThings. I took it for a spin and it is pretty cool, although it still had some rough edges last I looked.

The gateway runs on an RPI and they give you a URL so you can access it from anywhere.

I'm surprised it hasn't got more attention here.

Re: Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

#317
post #286
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Amazon is choosy on what features you can implement Allowing someone to holler into an open (or recently broken) window to open my front door sounds terrifying.

If they broke your window they’d probably crawl through it.

What about throwing a small speaker through the window that blasts out “Alexa, unlock front door ... Siri, unlock front door” ? (I’m no criminal mastermind, but just a random thought)

Re: Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

#318
post #92

I hope security is at the top of their list. I want a super secure hub that everything connects to. The hub is the only thing that speaks to my router. The hub is super secure & doesn't let devices send data back to their manufacturer. If I buy cheap devices off a flea market like Amazon, I want to sleep safe & know that the hub is preventing that device from messing with any other devices or accessing the internet.…

Apple, Amazon, and Google are fundamentally opposed to a model that sells devices that don’t phone home - their whole purpose is to capture value by creating lock-in for surveillable hosted services

Google and Amazon are like that. Apple is more into cross-selling you other Apple products and locking you into the Apple ecosystem.

Re: Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> mostly to prevent competition from low cost devices manufactured in China. mostly to prevent competition from patent-infringing clones manufactured in China. FIFY

I actually worked at Ember for a bit before leaving when they get bought by Silicon Labs. The reason, internally, really was the fear that there would be a flood of low quality products that would make ZigBee look bad.

> fear that there would be a flood of low quality products

That's mental gymnastics. The fear is having to compete against cheaper products (possibly low quality, but possibly not). Even broken DRM is an excellent anti-competitive tool because no one can legally sell a competing product.

Re: Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

#320

10 years in the trenches here. Apple’s smart home protocol famously does not support multiple users. Amazon is choosy on what features you can implement (turn on alarms but not turning them off, locking doors but not unlocking them). Google loves using radio hardware no one else supports. Zigbee has delightful legacy security vulnerabilities and consortium drama. I look forward to these groups putting aside their dif…

> Apple’s smart home protocol famously does not support multiple users. It does? I'm added to my dad's account and can access everything just fine along with my own stuff.

>everything
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