Live data from Hacker News

Google claims copyright on employee side projects

twitter.com

351–360 of 399 posts

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#351
post #95

Oh, please. It's standard industry practice for companies to claim ownership of everything a software engineer comes up with, even "on their own time". The problem is it's extremely difficult to say, figure out when someone might have invented some super clever idea which can be pantented "on their own time". This was true when I worked for MIT, VA Linux, IBM, and Google. At VA Linux it was the VC's which insisted on…

It's absurd for any company to say they're going to attract passionate programmers, and then expect them to just roll over and give up projects that were started before they even joined at the company. If you're Google, you can get away with this because you just throw so much money at people that they're willing to temporarily put their life on hold for 3-4 years. But for any other company, people who are genuinely…

I think your reaction here is similar to how people reacted to the headline that a woman sued her 5 year old nephew for accidentally breaking her arm. She was actually suing the parent's home owners insurance policy because the policy is supposed to cover these kinds of accidents. The insurance company didn't want to pay out though, so they spun the story to a news broadcaster in an effort to shame her into dropping the claim.

Most cases where an employer claims ownership of something an engineer did on their own time, it's because the engineer decided to create a competing product and used information or other ip they only had access to as an employee. The guy trying to sell his competing product doesn't want to acknowledge that they've violated a non-compete or NDA they signed, so they publicly claim their employer is just being a bunch of greedy bastards. When you dig into known cases of employers claiming ownership of an employees outside work there are cases where they worked on it before they joined, but those are outliers, and having initial work from before joining doesn't mean that later work hasn't infringed on the employers existing IP.

This topic is often complicated, but the realistic answer is that you should always tell your employer that you've started working on something and have it acknowledged as yours way before any valuable IP is created. Not doing so isn't just irresponsible, it's a known business pattern that results in failure. You should ideally tell them before you've even answered the question of how you intend to do it. Nobody is going to steal a vague idea, so this just eliminates the possible argument later. A lack of ability to trust is a strong indicator of eventual failure of the project anyway, so there simply isn't a reason to avoid doing it.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#352
post #95

Oh, please. It's standard industry practice for companies to claim ownership of everything a software engineer comes up with, even "on their own time". The problem is it's extremely difficult to say, figure out when someone might have invented some super clever idea which can be pantented "on their own time". This was true when I worked for MIT, VA Linux, IBM, and Google. At VA Linux it was the VC's which insisted on…

> Oh, please. It's standard industry practice for companies to claim ownership of everything a software engineer comes up with, even "on their own time". Bullshit. I've never had to do that in 17 years as a software engineer (in the United States). Don't normalize this crap and make excuses for it.

Not only that, the bit about letting you "out-and-out own the work done on your own time... not [using] any company resources" is standard.

Most ownership clauses allow it, and many of them don't even require permission. They might require notice, or encourage you to check in with legal up front to preempt issues, but they don't require you to get approval for a project totally unrelated to your job. I'm not sure why people are claiming the situation is already so bad there's no point in caring.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#353
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was Google ever anything but "just another US corporation"?

When it was still two guys in a garage?

True - that's when they were an all-American startup, a small group of smart people chasing the American dream.

What's remarkable is that the transition to "just another US corporation" (implying that they value profit over their employees or customers) took so long, that they were able to maintain that startup "communal" culture and innovative mentality.

It's also what makes their current predicament more tragic, the collective disillusionment of their core ideals which is what made them exceptional and respected in the first place.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#354
post #273

My current employer has a standard "you own anything you do in your spare time, as long as it's not done on work equipment" clause in the contract. Quite a few people here have side projects, discussion about them is open, and the culture is that of respect for these people and the projects. I get the impression that the company likes people with the motivation and energy to engage in side projects, and practically e…

It's admirable how your employer has the contract clause excluding ownership of any work you do on your own time, on your own equipment. To me, that seems like it should be the standard, common sense.

I noticed Dunbar's number (~150 people) is sometimes mentioned, to attempt to explain how trust in relationships break down in large corporations.

I'm curious, may I ask roughly how big your employer is?

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#355
post #95

Oh, please. It's standard industry practice for companies to claim ownership of everything a software engineer comes up with, even "on their own time". The problem is it's extremely difficult to say, figure out when someone might have invented some super clever idea which can be pantented "on their own time". This was true when I worked for MIT, VA Linux, IBM, and Google. At VA Linux it was the VC's which insisted on…

It's absurd for any company to say they're going to attract passionate programmers, and then expect them to just roll over and give up projects that were started before they even joined at the company. If you're Google, you can get away with this because you just throw so much money at people that they're willing to temporarily put their life on hold for 3-4 years. But for any other company, people who are genuinely…

> It's absurd for any company to say they're going to attract passionate programmers, and then expect them to just roll over and give up projects that were started before they even joined at the company.

What I find more absurd are companies that want to hire employees that are passionate and work on side projects but also require employees to sign extremely broad “we own your IP” contracts. It’s like they are saying, “We want to hire the most passionate! But we also want to own all the work they do outside of work. Free labor!”

It seems like the industry as a whole is moving towards standardizing around such a double requirement in hiring, and I do not like that trend.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's nonsense. > In Germany the default for contracts is that you need your employers permission to do side projects. You generally need to notify your employer if you take on a second (paid) job. The employer may veto that employment, but must specify a good reason (you can't be in competition, exceed the total legal working hours, bring ill repute to your employer, ...), but the default is "allow". Clauses that r…

I suspect in Germany not informing your employer about other jobs would end badly for you

I'm not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt. I'm an employer, though, so I was incentivized to read up a little on employment law (you learn a lot of things you never wanted to know...)

German labor courts are most of the time well aware of the power imbalance between employer and employee. Even we, as a tiny company could bring more legal resources and funds to bear than most of our employees. So courts usually favor the employee.

Given that, I'd expect that the result would largely depend on how bad the infraction rates. If you failed to report a job that the employer could not have vetoed on any grounds, I'd generally expect a slap on the wrist (Abmahnung, "written warning") or such as the result. Worst case regular termination. On cases where the employee failed to report a side job that could or would have been vetoed, immediate termination with cause is possible - the link I posted above cites such a case. If the side job caused damages, suing for damages would be possible. However, suing for damages requires you to prove damages, which will be hard in many cases.

So I'd really recommend that as an employee you dutifully report when you plan to take on a second job - just be sure to phrase it as such: Don't make it a request. It's a notice.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany has an entire law around this which came into force 1957: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbnerfg/__49.html Many work contracts don't have clauses for inventions related to your field of employment because there's no ambiguity. Most patches would not fall under the law, but entire libaries or novel approaches might. (basically anything patent-worthy)

This is the point I think the tweeter and a lot of commenters on here miss. In the EU all those laws are part of the statutory employment law /eu directives and not in an individuals contract - so employees don't ever know about that unless they know about employment law.

> so employees don't ever know about that unless they know about employment law.

I'd really recommend all employees to read up at least on the generics of employment law. No need to read up on the edge cases, but the general law is pretty clear and not too long.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm right now waiting for an IARC approval for a small HTML+Typescript that took me 6h Why do you want IARC and not patching approval for that? Unless your intent is to make money from it in the future, there's really no need to engage in the IARC process. Patching approval is painless, and the easiest process for something that you want to be considered to exist outside of Google (its owned by you in your personal…

For example, because I don't want people to have to sign a CLA to contribute patches to my weekend side projects? That's incredibly dev hostile.

Unless it's changed recently, projects released under patching (again, not releasing) don't require a signed cla (edit: just checked and they don't). They're not Google owned, Google just maintains ownership of your contributions.

And if you look at the releasing guidelines, they only make sense for code developed in google3 and later released. You can't actually follow the releasing process for code developed on non-google hardware, your only option is to follow the patching or iarc methods, and patching is trivially easy and doesn't require anyone to sign a cla.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#359
post #337
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can call it industry standard but it is blatant exploitation of workers and their rights. It is also breaking one of basic human rights, right to work, putting them into situation where they are slaves to the company. Someone in EU should bring this to the EU court for human rights, I am sure they would win the case and stop this practice, at least for EU. For my country this is completely unenforcable and every…

Maybe just a detail for USA workers, a brief explanation how some things work in some EU states, as an alternative to union, much softer one, but it has teeth (as an extreme, it can get CEO to a jail). I am 8 years (elected, 2 mandates, around 1200 workers) in workers council (Germans might be well aware of this). This is a "political body" which as its basic description, has to work in favor of workers AND company (…

I'm afraid this doesn't have enough corporatocracy or dystopia, but thank you.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#360
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's absurd for any company to say they're going to attract passionate programmers, and then expect them to just roll over and give up projects that were started before they even joined at the company. If you're Google, you can get away with this because you just throw so much money at people that they're willing to temporarily put their life on hold for 3-4 years. But for any other company, people who are genuinely…

> It's absurd for any company to say they're going to attract passionate programmers, and then expect them to just roll over and give up projects that were started before they even joined at the company. What I find more absurd are companies that want to hire employees that are passionate and work on side projects but also require employees to sign extremely broad “we own your IP” contracts. It’s like they are saying…

The industry isn't moving towards this. The IP agreements I signed at start-ups in 1994, 1998, 1999, and so on all had functionally identical terms. And more, like the duty to in good faith pursue patents whenever merited and assist IP attorneys with the creation of filings and sign over patent rights for nominal sums. [Edit formatting and typos.]
Post reply on HN