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Judge dismisses Wikimedia case against NSA over Upstream surveillance

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Re: Judge dismisses Wikimedia case against NSA over Upstream surveillance

#61
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one thing that Snowden mentions in his book. You cannot have a fair trial if you are an whistleblower, since that would include revealing/acknowledging the existence of such programs, thing they don't want to do.

Being a whistleblower is not a crime. Whistleblowing is regulated by law. Government agencies have internal processes for people who want to blow the whistle on conduct they may deem illegal or unethical, and it is perfectly safe to do so. Edward Snowden did not go through the proper channels. If he had, doing so would not have led to his prosecution. He broke into computer systems he did not have the right to access…

Ah, the Espionage Act of 1917. One of the governments finest attacks on free speech. And it worked. The Supreme Court, in wanting to uphold a conviction against someone protesting a war they almost certainly agreed with, ruled it constitutional.

And do you really think the government will give him a fair trial? No. They almost certainly will give him a secret trial. How are those even constitutional?

And regarding the legality, we have a constitutionally protected right listed in the Fourth Amendment: the protection against unreasonable searches and seizures. The NSA’s indiscriminate spying is a search, no matter what Comey and the government say. If I steal documents off my employer’s computer and never read them, I’ve still committed a crime. Why is it different when the government does it? National security? What security am I receiving in exchange for them stealing data off my computer (and then saying they didn’t)?

Re: Judge dismisses Wikimedia case against NSA over Upstream surveillance

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a whistleblower is not a crime. Whistleblowing is regulated by law. Government agencies have internal processes for people who want to blow the whistle on conduct they may deem illegal or unethical, and it is perfectly safe to do so. Edward Snowden did not go through the proper channels. If he had, doing so would not have led to his prosecution. He broke into computer systems he did not have the right to access…

> programs that were in no way illegal, or unconstitutional I noticed you didn't say unethical .

It doesn’t really matter. It’s wrong. The Fourth Amendment is a thing regardless of what the government does or says.

Re: Judge dismisses Wikimedia case against NSA over Upstream surveillance

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might be a bit strong, but they should be severely limited. They way it is today, frequently it seems like the "Secrets" are really just secrets from the citizenry. When you look at something like the U2 the "enemy" knew more about it than the American people. Same thing today, do you really think the Chinese can't figure out the capabilities of our spy sats? Most of these secrets should have a defined and quite…

> When you look at something like the U2 the "enemy" knew more about it than the American people. But at the same time, it's hard to be positive how much the enemy knows about anything. And you can't always decide "Well they probably know X, so let's tell out citizens." What if the enemy didn't actually know and made critical (or even non-critical) decisions based on bad information? After all, any good enemy is also…

I think there is a difference between telling everyone "We have this really fast plane called the U2, and the Russians have been lobbing missiles at it. For the moment its fast/high enough to outrun them but this won't last forever" and telling them how fast/high.

There is a middle ground between handing out out engineering information, and pretending it doesn't exist.

Re: Judge dismisses Wikimedia case against NSA over Upstream surveillance

#64

From the article: "Judge Ellis said: "For Wikimedia to litigate the standing issue further, and for defendants to defend adequately in any further litigation, would require the disclosure of protected state secrets, namely details about the Upstream surveillance program's operations. For the reasons that follow, therefore, the standing issue cannot be tried, or otherwise further litigated, without risking or requirin…

>they can use this as justification to keep anything they want secret, even when there is no real national security concern with revealing the information.

Aren't these secrets revealed to the judge, who then decides if the intel agency is justified in state secrets defense? At least that is a check and balance.

Re: Judge dismisses Wikimedia case against NSA over Upstream surveillance

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ugh he didn’t break in, he had access Snowden convinced colleagues to give him their passwords: https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/11/snowden... A Google query for "Snowden stole passwords" returns a lot of results.

I think you missed a lot of the phrasing: > supposedly gained access He was an IT administrator who had Sudo access to pretty much everything. I’d be careful of a lot of the stuff you read in 2013. There was and still is a concerted effort to discredit Snowden and make people feel he is a traitor. Example: why did they cancel his passport after his plane left for Russia? (To say he’s a Russian spy) There’s a lot of e…

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Re: Judge dismisses Wikimedia case against NSA over Upstream surveillance

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you look at something like the U2 the "enemy" knew more about it than the American people. But at the same time, it's hard to be positive how much the enemy knows about anything. And you can't always decide "Well they probably know X, so let's tell out citizens." What if the enemy didn't actually know and made critical (or even non-critical) decisions based on bad information? After all, any good enemy is also…

I think there is a difference between telling everyone "We have this really fast plane called the U2, and the Russians have been lobbing missiles at it. For the moment its fast/high enough to outrun them but this won't last forever" and telling them how fast/high. There is a middle ground between handing out out engineering information, and pretending it doesn't exist.

(The U-2 flies high but quite slow. The A-12/SR-71 were the really fast ones.)

Re: Judge dismisses Wikimedia case against NSA over Upstream surveillance

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? What are you going to do with them? It requires nation-state level resources to even attempt to build them. Even states dedicated to developing them against the wishes of the international community (i.e. North Korea) have been barely successful.

It once required the smartest people utilizing resources from the wealthiest nations. 80 years later North Korea is making a pretty good effort. In another 80 years do you think it's unreasonable to think a wealthy individual might be able to build something? In other words, why would building an nuclear weapon not get easier?

> In another 80 years do you think it's unreasonable to think a wealthy individual might be able to build something?

They'd not be able to do it without the weapons grade material. The matter of getting that stuff isn't really a secret, it's just pretty expensive, takes a lot of time, and will be noticed by intelligence agencies. I don't see why any of that would change.

The list of suspects will be short; anybody trying to refine U-235 would need huge quantities of natural uranium and a warehouse full of precision centrifuges. And anybody trying to create Pu-239 would need a nuclear reactor.

Re: Judge dismisses Wikimedia case against NSA over Upstream surveillance

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you missed a lot of the phrasing: > supposedly gained access He was an IT administrator who had Sudo access to pretty much everything. I’d be careful of a lot of the stuff you read in 2013. There was and still is a concerted effort to discredit Snowden and make people feel he is a traitor. Example: why did they cancel his passport after his plane left for Russia? (To say he’s a Russian spy) There’s a lot of e…

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"You should watch the news and be aware of all of this" says it all. You watch far too much TV, all of these points are laughable and your phrasing suggests you are rather emotionally involved in all this. I would suggest staying away from the 24-hour news cycle and finding better sources of information.

Re: Judge dismisses Wikimedia case against NSA over Upstream surveillance

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this comment being downvoted? What alternatives are there other than achieving meaningful representation in government e.g. Congress?

It's being downvoted because it's utterly fallacious. The democratic process has been captured by mass media and turned into a simulation of choosing change. Divisive bikesheds are played up to the max, while the fundamental substantive issues like this are off the discussion table. Any candidate that dares to break rank and bring them up gets labeled "fringe" and memory-holed by the maintream media. The ultimate alt…

Furthermore; democracy relies on there being meaningful communication and an at least somewhat unbiased sampling of popular opinion.

So firstly on meaningful communication: Under the guise of freedom of speech nowadays falsehoods, and even more critically just plain noise is pervasive; the freedom to shout nonsense is inhibiting the freedom to hear a reasonable and diverse set of opinions and facts. Most (loud and repeated) messages are by corporations and other groups too; because that channel simply has more resources - and that's unfortunate not because corporations are intrinsically evil (which they aren't), but because people are intrinsically social and groups of people often quite the reverse; so that corporate "speech" in the form of campaign finance typically is plainly corruption - albeit legal, even if most of its constituent individuals are reasonably moral people. In short; we know the evils of censorship and have robust traditions to at least oppose that; but we do not have similar traditions vs. overload and deception, and indeed our (entirely reasonable) protections against censorship make us more vulnerable to these rising problems. Is there a solution? Who knows; but any solution certainly is not on the public radar yet let alone nearby.

Secondly on democracy: It's pretty plausible that democracies undeniable success in the past centuries may have benefited in part be due to the uncanny wisdom of the crowds. But that effect has risks and flaws (a quick google finds e.g. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20140708-when-crowd-wisdo... discussing some of those). And as it so happens, simply because we communicate so much nowadays, we're always bombarded with what which constituency will vote / should vote / thinks / etc; in ways that would have been simply inconceivable a century ago. And exactly that kind of information turns out to critically undermine the wisdom of the crowds. Polling (and in general political commentary not on the substance but on the shifting political winds themselves) is poison to democracy. The more people know about how others vote and how they should vote... the worse they vote collectively. Democracy's decision making advantage is being eroded without any malice or election manipulation required; it's an entirely natural social process that indeed may well be the ultimate root cause of the polarization of US politics.

We're not going to get congress to do much good until we can get democracy to work again; and we won't be able to do that until we have some way to address these fundamental, underlying weaknesses we currently face. Almost by definition if you can get one party on board, there will be another that's opposed - and a cacophony of voices shouting factually inconsistent statements, lies, disagreements, lobbying to the point that no unbiased sampling of voters will ever exist. So whether people have thought about it or not; everybody realizes that grand benign national changes are utterly beyond the divided, impotent congress that suggesting they do more then keep the lights on (and even that is pushing it nowadays!) is so naive as to come across as almost insincere.

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