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Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

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Re: Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

#251

Post by nybble41 »

mr__y wrote: post #218
zackmorris wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another thing I'd like to see is a distributed shared state standard (not just for IoT): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_shared_memory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_transactional_memory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_algorithm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raft_(computer_science) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_hash_table The current trend of using async logic via message passing…

How would you solve access permissions in DHT? What if a node in DHT holds data that it is not granted to read? This would imply encryption of the data to prevent unauthorized reads - this does not really seem as a complicated problem - the data could be encrypted with only the nodes granted the read access having the decryption key(s). What seems harder to me is write permissions - if the data is encrypted/signed, o…

> What seems harder to me is write permissions

The usual solution for this is that the data must be signed by a specific private key; possession of that key grants write permission. A generation count or timestamp is embedded in the signed data to ensure that newer data cannot be replaced with obsolete data. Malicious nodes can still block updates from being distributed, though, so you need more than one path to seed the data into the network.

Re: Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

#252

Post by saagarjha »

JEOII wrote: post #247
Symmetry wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also the bit where Zigbee devices have to share a secret key to talk to each other, mostly to prevent competition from low cost devices manufactured in China.

If you look at the Zigbee member list, there are many China based companies. They don't need to 'steal' anything as members.

The comment mentioned nothing about stealing.

Re: Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

#253

Post by stiray »

kbumsik wrote: post #112

For someone who thinks Zigbee already is an open standard, well, it is NOT really open though. A standard being publicity available does not always make it open-source friendly. Linux considers it a proprietary protocol [1] so Zigbee driver cannot be part of Linux kernel. Although Zigbee spec allows non-commercial individuals to freely use it, a commercial organization must be a member of the Zigbee Alliance in order…

There is just one open standard. User having root access to the IOT device and scripting there whatever it wants. Any 3rd party dependence is a way of collecting and selling data (google and fitbit acquisition) and should be prohibited. Vote with your wallet, dont buy devices that prohibit you root access and make 3rd party servers access mandatory. Simple as that.

Re: Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

#254

Post by mistersquid »

TheKarateKid wrote: post #236
baybal2 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It reminds me of the old "FireWire vs USB." Firewire was an originally open standard, but there came Apple and demanded to exact a symbolic 1$ per device payment. Despite FireWire being an indisputably better standard from technical standpoint, that 1$ completely ruined the mood with OEMs, and they lost the market. USB on the other hand, was not really open, but Intel's central leadership in it guaranteed that there…

FireWire also had a few port types which required different cables and connectors, while USB at the time only had one (this was before Mini and Micro USB). Apple even included dongle converters with their iPods. USB also had the advantage of Intel pushing it, resulting in almost every PC with an Intel CPU (large majority) having USB ports.

> USB also had the advantage of Intel pushing it, resulting in almost every PC with an Intel CPU (large majority) having USB ports.

In the mid to late 1990s, USB was scarce. It didn't take off until after Apple replaced its ADB (Apple Desktop Bus) port with USB in the first iMacs. Once that happened, manufacturers flooded the market with consumer products (e.g. CDRW drives) and PC makers followed suit. Up to that point PC makers had standardized on the serial port.

I don't have contemporaneous links at the moment but the second paragraph of a relatively recent (2015) article summarizes:

> But Apple shocked the computing world when it swept its old connectors away with the original 1998 iMac. The bulbous computer adopted a then-struggling standard developed by Intel called USB (Universal Serial Bus). In a hint of what was to become the company’s ability to make or break certain technologies, USB would go on to live up to its “universal” descriptor and become the most prevalent connectivity standard in the world. The solid-and-hollow stacked rectangles of its “A” connector now appear in everything from alarm clocks to airplanes. [0]

[0] https://www.fastcompany.com/3044088/apple-and-usb-a-history-...

Re: Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

#255

Post by joshstrange »

xoa wrote: post #249
joshstrange wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am personally really against my IoT devices being able to "speak" TCP/IP, I want them to use dumb radios (Z-wave or if I must, Zigbee) that cannot talk to the internet. I get the draw of Wifi/IP devices but I avoid them at all costs. I don't want 10's or 100's of devices on my network that all are talking to servers in China. I bought a few cheap POE Chinese cameras that I use with Zoneminder but they are all block…

> I don't want 10's or 100's of devices on my network that all are talking to servers in China. I definitely agree, although I'd expand that to "talking to any servers at all anywhere for anything I don't explicitly grant permission for". However for that very reason I prefer WiFi/IP devices, because it makes it very easy and straight forward to apply all the powerful network management tools we have for everything e…

You've made some very good points and better explained what I really want. I also will admit that using existing tools to create VLANs to "quarantine" the devices is an option. That said (and you touched on this) the average consumer is not prepared to deal with any of that, maybe that will change but as of today it's not easy or even possible with most consumer-grade hardware.

As for Z-wave/Zigbee, I could be missing a potential security hole but personally I am less concerned with my Z*-devices being hacked and more concerned with IP-devices being hacked and being able to talk to other IP-based devices on my network.

For example, it would suck to have someone be able to hack my door or lights but it wouldn't be the end of the world AND it requires physical access/proximity. This is quite different from someone on the other side of the globe being able to hack a device, hack other devices on my network (non-IoT), and then do something malicious (ransomware, identity theft, etc).

Re: Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

#256

Post by AnthonyMouse »

PaulHoule wrote: post #229
Symmetry wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also the bit where Zigbee devices have to share a secret key to talk to each other, mostly to prevent competition from low cost devices manufactured in China.

Key exchange for IoT devices is a tricky problem. IoT devices don't support public key infrastructure, e.g. something like GnuPG or the SSL certificates used by web browsers. It's a very practical solution to have a shared secret between the device and a central server, and, at registration time, have the central server make a key for both the hub and the device. Without some kind of key exchange, people could set of…

The solution is to have a pairing mode that allows the device to be paired with a control device (e.g. your phone) via wireless while you're in the same room as it. That would only have to be done once when it's installed and require pressing a physical button on the device while being in wireless range so that nobody can hack it remotely.

Re: Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

#257

Post by umeshunni »

umeshunni wrote: post #148

I hope whatever standard they come up with does not require a home WiFi network to operate. Mobile internet is already faster than your average home internet line and there is an increasing trend where people rely entirely on their mobile phones for network connectivity.

Wow, just when I thought the average HN reader could not get any more out of touch with the general population....

Here's some data that backs up my point. Sorry if this doesn't match your anecdotes from your bubbles.

https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/fact-sheet/mobile/

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/24/smartphones-72percent-of-peo...

https://www.comscore.com/ita/Public-Relations/Blog/Number-of...

Re: Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

#258

Post by what_ever »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #141

I bought a home and the previous owner used Z-Wave for everything. The whole thing worked irregardless of internet working or not. Whatever they invent if it is useless without internet access its a step back from something that has already worked. All my home automation / smart home integrations will have to be Z Wave compatible or I will not use it. If my internet goes out will all my things be useless without it?

Just a nit - it's regardless not irregardless.

Re: Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

#259

Post by JEOII »

kbumsik wrote: post #112

For someone who thinks Zigbee already is an open standard, well, it is NOT really open though. A standard being publicity available does not always make it open-source friendly. Linux considers it a proprietary protocol [1] so Zigbee driver cannot be part of Linux kernel. Although Zigbee spec allows non-commercial individuals to freely use it, a commercial organization must be a member of the Zigbee Alliance in order…

To understand some of the reasoning of what is open and isn't you can look at the different versions of their IPR, testing and use policies. There used to be 'profiles' but they were merged into one version: 3.0 IPR version 4 allowed anyone to use the specs and develop product 'based' on Zigbee and didn't protect anyone from IP enforcement from the many patent holders. This caused a lot of issues around 'interoperability' and end user adoption. "It says Zigbee but it doesn't work with other 'Zigbee' devices." IPR version 5 moved to improve interoperability and enable members to increase development by increasing protections. It granted RANDZ between all members. It improved interoperability by only allowing the use of the name and logo if the device was certified by an approved test house. This did increase deployments and reduced interop issues. Now there is IPR version 6, which allows for the growth of other protocols, providing the IP protection developers, manufacturers and retails want and could enable further industry consolidation - which is good for the end consumer. The average Joe and Jane just want stuff that works without having to be a technical expert. Any open source move is probably about getting more developers exposed and involved to help grow the base both creators - and consumers.

Re: Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance to develop connectivity standard

#260

Post by stevehawk »

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #227

> Apple, Microsoft, Dell, Tesla and Google's parent company, Alphabet are named in the lawsuit The comma misuse is legendary. https://www.amazon.com/Eats-Shoots-Leaves-Tolerance-Punctuat... Fixed: Apple, Microsoft, Dell, Tesla, and Google's parent company, Alphabet, are named in the lawsuit

That's why I wore a shirt like this in college

https://www.teepublic.com/t-shirt/637761-i-write-code-progra...

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