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Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

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Re: Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

#191
Lear to play chords and scale modes based off of C major. Raise and lower notes and see what happens. Read any book or website on music theory. It's not rocket science. I meanmajor/minor scales have 7 notes. And there are only 12 notes in different octaves to choose from and combine in pleasing ways. Don't limit yourself by theory but study it to grow.

I recommend studying the basics in any book and also watch Barry Harris on YouTube when you understand the basics to get some cool a-ha moments. https://youtu.be/F8JJncSUdUU

Re: Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

#192
post #79

For this, I would highly recommend the music theorist/composer Dimitri Tymoczko. His career project is to rebuild the basics of harmony from the ground up from (mostly simple) rules, closely based on how people hear. A catchphrase he uses a lot is "why does music sound good?" He teaches a set of 2 comprehensive introductory music theory classes at Princeton, and he makes the lecture notes public: https://dmitri.mycpa…

One can argue whether Tymoczko's approach genuinely leads to understanding theory "from the ground up". His research is best understood IMHO as a worthwhile (in itself) "tweak" and generalization of a previous theoretical approach known as "Neo-Riemannian theory", named after Hugo Riemann's descriptions of tonal harmony (i.e. the general working of 'chords', or rather, major and minor triads). Seen from that POV, it'…

All good points. I don't know much about his actual higher-level mathematical stuff (I'm pretty bush-league about theory overall, really!) But I've heard that a lot of people in the music theory world say it's awfully close to regular Neo-Riemannian theory.

That said, in the Princeton lecture notes, he does seem to start a given topic on fundamental/"why" questions and then build out, more than any other intro music material that I've seen. A far as I can tell, his own theories are in there, but more as a framework to help explain things, rather than demanding you think that way.

For example, in the first pages, he describes a bunch of well-known fundamentals in music theory/psychoacoustics, but in a very "Tymoszco-esque" way. He lays out five principles common to a huge range of music styles: some combinations of notes are considered more pleasant than others, you don't want to have melodies that jump around too much, etc. (These all go for the Western musical tradition, but also many others.)

Then he says that our scales are essentially "solutions" to how you can chop up the octave into steps and meet all of the five requirements. It turns out there are a relatively small number of ways to do that, we've found just about all of them, and those are pretty much exactly the list of scales that we're using. But then he quickly builds it out to common scales that you can play on a keyboard written out in normal notation, and goes from there.

This is extremely satisfying to my hacker brain, like picking a handful of criteria and doing a search to find all the possible lists of numbers that meet those criteria.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if you can explain music theory from fundamentals just as well using traditional Neo-Riemannian theory, or even something totally different. I just haven't ran into any intro-level materials like that.

(Also: it could even be that his list of requirements isn't really true, but it's hard to see which ones you would want to deny for Western music.)

Re: Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

#193
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One can argue whether Tymoczko's approach genuinely leads to understanding theory "from the ground up". His research is best understood IMHO as a worthwhile (in itself) "tweak" and generalization of a previous theoretical approach known as "Neo-Riemannian theory", named after Hugo Riemann's descriptions of tonal harmony (i.e. the general working of 'chords', or rather, major and minor triads). Seen from that POV, it'…

All good points. I don't know much about his actual higher-level mathematical stuff (I'm pretty bush-league about theory overall, really!) But I've heard that a lot of people in the music theory world say it's awfully close to regular Neo-Riemannian theory. That said, in the Princeton lecture notes, he does seem to start a given topic on fundamental/"why" questions and then build out, more than any other intro music…

Thing is, NR theory is almost as far from fundamentals as you can get; loosely speaking, it's a description of how very "far" modulations between triads (and to some extent, scales/keys) can nonetheless be made to work. It's describing a "trick", so to speak. Tymoczko's additions make the approach somewhat more useful, but it's still nowhere near the actual fundamentals of how music is understood in general (which is what one would expect "theory" to be about).

Re: Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

#194

I'm working on an IDE for nusic composition, I'm launching soon http://ngrid.io . I'm hoping you won't need to know music theory, the app will guide you.

Looks cool, but this person specifically requested resources to learn music theory.

It will be a resource of sorts.

Re: Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

#196
post #107

I've played guitar for almost 18 years and bass for roughly 5 years and also went to community college for theory and private instruction. Since then, I have recorded, played shows in various genres, and have toured the US and few places in Canada and Mexico. You need to be able to find time to synthesize learning how to read music, playing music that challenges you but is within reach of your ability, ear training,…

I imagine it's not really important to you now as you've turned the theory into an intuitive understanding for music itself, over the years you've been playing. Do you think you would have the same level of understanding had you had instead played entirely by ear for all those years, or do you think the theory helped you connect the concepts you felt better?

I feel like theory helped me find the right way to label certain sounds/harmonies and organize/internalize them in a way that made sense to me. I don't think I could have figured that out on my own; however, I also had friends that went to music school, so it's possible I could have just sponged off of their learning.

Re: Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

#198

Back in the early 2000s I quit my engineering job and went to music school for a few years. We used Mark Levine's excellent "Jazz Theory Book" to cover the theoretical aspects. It presents theory in the context of trying to understand how to improvise over jazz harmonies - I found it very useful. It's a textbook though: you're going to have to invest some time in it to get the most out of it. https://www.amazon.co.uk…

"if you can't reliably identify all the intervals within an octave and identify major, minor, diminished and augmented triads, as well as the basic 4-note chords (major 7, minor 7, dominant 7, minor-7-flat-5) by ear..."

I feel this is phrased in a very daunting way. Understanding how the different notes sounds is certainly a building block to soloing/improvisation, but you do NOT need a jazz-pro ear to do that. I certainly can't always recognize 4 note chord types, but while playing I can tell when a flat 3rd would sound tasty in lieu of a major 3rd.

A great exercise I used is playing piano in C major and getting used to using the black keys, which will all be sharp or flat notes in that key. Get used to how a flat 3rd sounds compared to a major, the same with flat 7ths, sharp 5ths, etc...learn how to add those notes in ways that work.

I improved a LOT from a VERY short course by Youtuber Jeff Schneider that teaches this in a structured manner. It's 25 short & tasty blues licks in C major, so every time something 'tasty' is played, it's either a flat/sharp note and/or a fun rhythm, like a triplet. It made so many things click for my lead playing.

I'm in no way affiliated with Jeff but I can't recommend the course enough, best 15$ I've probably ever spent. It's also now been transcribed to all keys, but I think C is probably all you need. https://jeffschneidermusic.com/store/tastiest-blues-licks

Re: Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

#199
Professional musician here with 30 years' experience.

I recommend my friend David Newman's YouTube channel as a great first start to learning music theory basics and training your ear. His music theory and ear training songs are ingenious.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHJPt4PanqqHQcuUif88o0Q

Once your ability to read music is trained up to a basic level, I also recommend listening to classical music while reading the full orchestral scores. This can vastly improve your skill levels with reading music. Scores are available for free online from IMSLP, and in print at very affordable prices from Dover Publications and others.

Re: Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

#200
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All good points. I don't know much about his actual higher-level mathematical stuff (I'm pretty bush-league about theory overall, really!) But I've heard that a lot of people in the music theory world say it's awfully close to regular Neo-Riemannian theory. That said, in the Princeton lecture notes, he does seem to start a given topic on fundamental/"why" questions and then build out, more than any other intro music…

Thing is, NR theory is almost as far from fundamentals as you can get; loosely speaking, it's a description of how very "far" modulations between triads (and to some extent, scales/keys) can nonetheless be made to work. It's describing a "trick", so to speak. Tymoczko's additions make the approach somewhat more useful, but it's still nowhere near the actual fundamentals of how music is understood in general (which is…

Huh, maybe his intro-level materials are far different, then. I'm not going to die on the hill that there's any connection; I don't even know whether he claims there is. But it at least seems that this specific stuff (at least in the early chapters I've read) is both more fundamental and more grounded in math (very basic math in this case) than the other intro theory stuff I've seen.
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