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A hiring test I'd like to run

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Re: A hiring test I'd like to run

#11

Post by onion2k »

dangerface wrote: post #8
onion2k wrote: post #7

If the test doesn't reflect the job you'll be doing then it's not a good test of whether or not you'll be able to do the job. If you're applying for a role that expects you to know an application then looking in the help is cheating. If using the help is acceptable in the job then it's not. It's also worth noting that people don't like "proxy tests" for the skills they'll need to use on the job. If the test only tang…

> If you're applying for a role that expects you to know an application then looking in the help is cheating. If you discourage your employees from learning you are going to have a lot of dumb employees. Even the developers who made excel do not know how to do everything that excel can do.

Some businesses need to hire people to do a job using an application in a very standardized way from day 1, there is no expectation that the person doing it will learn anything in the role, and when the software changes training is provided. The employer is in complete control of what is done and how the software is used. Figuring something out yourself is considered a bad thing because it's not the standardized way of doing the thing.

Please don't go through life imagining every job is like a developer job. We get far more freedom, creativity, and responsibility than a lot of other workers.

Re: A hiring test I'd like to run

#13

Post by rsstack »

This is very similar to what I do for roles that are supposed to be independent and to work with customer software. I ask the interviewee to do something with a technology or software they don't know, but give them no other constraints. They can use whatever programming language, whatever OS, whatever IDE, whatever existing libraries online and even IRC/Slack if time permits - the goal is to see that they can solve a problem that is new to them without panicking. In real life they'll have a lifeline or two in the form of colleagues, but those colleagues might also not have the answers.

Obviously a terrible solution for a standard product engineering position, it is only relevant for special roles.

Re: A hiring test I'd like to run

#14

Post by js2 »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #9

Well this is exactly like a test I went through at one time. It even used the same reasoning pretty much. The job was fullstack node and react, I went in and they said we want you to look at this game written in Python which is really slow and tell us what is wrong with it (I hadn't done python in years and back then wasn't very good at it). We will sit with you. I said I was game, they said lots of people weren't -…

If this was Python 2.1 or later, too bad you didn't check the stdlib:

https://docs.python.org/2/library/bisect.html

Re: A hiring test I'd like to run

#15

Post by adwww »

Msurrow wrote: post #4

First test of any software dev: Do you know how to look for answers on stackoverflow? Second test of any software dev: Do you know how to ask a good question on SO?

15 years of software engineering experience, and I don't know how to ask a question on SO without having it shut down as non-constructive, or that I should have used one of the 300 odd ultra niche sister sites.

Most vendors and libraries have IRC / Slack channels which are much more welcoming.

Re: A hiring test I'd like to run

#16

Post by commandlinefan »

notkaiho wrote: post #6

This reminds me of the story of the young intern that went around a few years ago. They sheepishly admitted to their boss at the end of their summer internship that they had just googled all the Excel things that were required, that they hadn't actually known any of it. "But your generation KNOWS to look for help, and knows where to find it! That's where you were doing it right," was the boss's response. And that's h…

Yeah, exactly: that's the job! The boss doesn't have time to read the docs, so you read the docs and get the task done.

Re: A hiring test I'd like to run

#17

Post by marvinjames »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #9

Well this is exactly like a test I went through at one time. It even used the same reasoning pretty much. The job was fullstack node and react, I went in and they said we want you to look at this game written in Python which is really slow and tell us what is wrong with it (I hadn't done python in years and back then wasn't very good at it). We will sit with you. I said I was game, they said lots of people weren't -…

Of course there was pressure, but why not just say that you know an algorithm that can do this faster, but you can't remember the name of it, and then just provide the intuition behind it?

Re: A hiring test I'd like to run

#18

Post by hvidgaard »

onion2k wrote: post #11
dangerface wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're applying for a role that expects you to know an application then looking in the help is cheating. If you discourage your employees from learning you are going to have a lot of dumb employees. Even the developers who made excel do not know how to do everything that excel can do.

Some businesses need to hire people to do a job using an application in a very standardized way from day 1, there is no expectation that the person doing it will learn anything in the role, and when the software changes training is provided. The employer is in complete control of what is done and how the software is used. Figuring something out yourself is considered a bad thing because it's not the standardized way…

That is all well and good for those types of jobs. But no one can remember how to use all of Excel, and they should be able to search for help and understand that help.

Re: A hiring test I'd like to run

#19

Post by ses1984 »

Some of the tests in my current company work like this. We don't expect you to have everything memorized. We give you a problem and then say, "feel free to use any reference you want, help, man pages, google, stack overflow, whatever."

Some people still stubbornly refuse to look for help.

Some people act on the first google search result even though it's obviously wrong.

Some people don't know how to read a man page.

I find it very illuminating, but I don't really have enough data points to say how successful it is.

Re: A hiring test I'd like to run

#20

Post by edent »

commandlinefan wrote: post #12

> Are they able to read a manual? Uh, I can read a manual (in fact, I enjoy reading software documentation), but it's going to take me longer than an hour...

Let me amend that. Are you able to look up information in a manual - either using the index or hitting CTRL+F?
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