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When will the Netherlands disappear?

politico.eu

51–60 of 186 posts

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#51
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because some people are shitting in their kitchen, it isn't a bad idea to do so as well? On a more serious note though, much of the agriculture in the Netherlands is the production of meat, especially pork, for export. This is by far the biggest source of pollution. I'd rather live with less animal farmers and more Natura2000 areas than the other way around.

Well, if us Dutch people stop shitting in our kitchen, we import food from other countries shitting in their kitchen, plus we now have extra fuel to burn to get the food here.

Actually, Dutch export most of their food and turn around and import cheaper food from far away (Spain and Brazil being two common sources).

Check it out at the grocery store sometime. It's not so easy to find the nice Dutch produce (the Germans are enjoying it!)

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#52
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any specific examples of this ? ( I know of the 1953 flood, a combination of high tide and storm ). But if there is plenty, I really would want to know.

Uh, are you asking for examples of flooding? Consider this: Delta Works and the rest of ocean polders are built to withstand something like 5m above mean sea level. Katrina caused a storm surge 8.5m above mean sea level. Granted, North Sea isn't quite like Gulf of Mexico (yet) But there is absolutely a chance that a storm comes next year that would breach it

> Uh, are you asking for examples of flooding?

No I was asking for plenty of big failures, as claimed

You are just speculating.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#53
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because some people are shitting in their kitchen, it isn't a bad idea to do so as well? On a more serious note though, much of the agriculture in the Netherlands is the production of meat, especially pork, for export. This is by far the biggest source of pollution. I'd rather live with less animal farmers and more Natura2000 areas than the other way around.

Well, if us Dutch people stop shitting in our kitchen, we import food from other countries shitting in their kitchen, plus we now have extra fuel to burn to get the food here.

We are the biggest exporter of agricultural products after the US, which is insane given the size of our country:

https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/actueel/nieuws/2019/01/18/neder...

There is no need to import food, we could just start exporting less.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#54
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any specific examples of this ? ( I know of the 1953 flood, a combination of high tide and storm ). But if there is plenty, I really would want to know.

In the Netherlands, no. But it's a small country with a small coast (relative to other countries), and it's in a part of the continent that has thus far not experienced much in the way of severe storms. That is changing as the weather patterns become more volatile. But here's a simple scenario. Earthquakes in the Groningen region (caused by natural gas drilling and extraction), have become a new and significant probl…

I was asking for examples of 'plenty of big failures'.

You are just speculating.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#55
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks to me like Germany has a significant amount of Natura 2000 sites, rather in proportion to NL in terms of land size. However, Germany has triple the percentage of forest compare to NL. Germany also has a lot of manufacturing that NL doesn't have. Both use about 50% of their land for agriculture. From what I can gather, Dutch farming is higher output - production wise as well as emissions wise.

How does this explain 2 orders of a magnitude difference in allowed nitrogen disposition compared to Germany?

NL has less biomass to absorb it - less forest and less soil.

There is basically less material for the pollutants to disperse.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#56
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any specific examples of this ? ( I know of the 1953 flood, a combination of high tide and storm ). But if there is plenty, I really would want to know.

Uh, are you asking for examples of flooding? Consider this: Delta Works and the rest of ocean polders are built to withstand something like 5m above mean sea level. Katrina caused a storm surge 8.5m above mean sea level. Granted, North Sea isn't quite like Gulf of Mexico (yet) But there is absolutely a chance that a storm comes next year that would breach it

There is a chance that such a storm could happen tomorrow. But the chance is a very slim one and since the Delta works the rivers have been a much bigger problem than the see.

The worst possible conditions for Zeeland/Zuid Holland would be springtide, storm, the initial sea level would be relatively unimportant. The problem is that the wind drives that water ahead of it and will cause the water to rise up because it can't flow away fast enough, in part because the channel is constricted to the South, in part because such storms typically come from the South West aiming directly at the weak spot in the shore defenses. Hence the Delta Works and the storm surge protection near Rotterdam (which is an absolutely amazing work of engineering by the way):

https://www.google.com/maps/search/stormvloedkering+google+m...

The scale of that thing might not be readily apparent but think of it as two Eiffel towers on their side that can move to close off the river.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#57
post #2

(I'm Dutch) My original post: The strange thing is that all the weight of the ice is pulling our area down. When all that ice melts our area will be lifted up. So we won't notice much difference. Edit: some facts are that the sea level at the west coast of north America has dropped and the sea level above Australia has risen. Sea levels are not as 'level' as you might think. By the way: I'm not saying we should not w…

> In our area the ice is pulling the sea towards it so the sea levels are higher. When this mass melts the sea levels in our area will go down.

Isn't it the other way around?

"The Antarctic ice sheet is also so large that it exerts a gravitational pull on the oceans: As it shrinks, sea water will redistribute away from the South Pole, causing an additional rise."

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#58
Indeed the question is not if, but when the Netherlands will flood due too sea level rise. Unlike many other nations the Netherlands is managed in a way that it can potentially handle quite significant (I would say 1-3 meters) in the next couple of decades if necessary at high but bearable costs.

The cost of retreating to higher parts of the country would easily go into trillions of euro's, which compared to the +/- 1 billion euro spent on sea defense according to the latest "Deltaplan".

Until now most climate models put catastrophic (say 3m+) sea level rise at hundreds to thousands of years of now so we (I'm Dutch) should be alright.

However, I personally feel that there is a non negligible possibility that all the current models are wrong because they are more or less extrapolating current changes and conditions. There are several mechanisms that could cause runaway sea level rise in shorter timescales, think melting permafrost with methane, regime change of jet stream, regime change/stop of ocean currents.

And more importantly that sea level rise is IMHO the possibility of extreme storms hitting the North Sea. Last year we say a few of those cyclone/hurricanes that usually stay on the other side of the atlantic come our way. That was highly unusual, and even though Ireland and Portugal are still a long way from the Netnerlands, if if all of a sudden a super storm with 300 km/h winds hits us (highest record gust unitl now is only 173 km/h), then we are sure doomed.

I can't predict the future, but living in the potentially vulnerable west of the country, I'm glad my parents in law have nice bit of property in the east at 17m+ sea level. I intend to live another 50 years, a lot can happen in my lifetime

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#59
post #58

Indeed the question is not if, but when the Netherlands will flood due too sea level rise. Unlike many other nations the Netherlands is managed in a way that it can potentially handle quite significant (I would say 1-3 meters) in the next couple of decades if necessary at high but bearable costs. The cost of retreating to higher parts of the country would easily go into trillions of euro's, which compared to the +/-…

That's a lot of ifs! Yes, if the sky falls we'll all wear blue hats. But for now the indications are that change will be gradual rather than sudden and we are actively working on this rather than sitting back and waiting to see how bad things will get (which is the standard in the rest of the developed world). NL is one of the few places where there is substantial funding today to deal with this.

Level of upheaval that could happen is of course orders of magnitude worse than what you can reasonably plan for but if such a thing were to come to pass it will have much larger effects than that NL would end up being a part of the ocean again. By that time you're looking at 100's of millions of people that will be displaced and catastrophic events pretty much all over the globe. NL will be a footnote in that story.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#60
post #23

I find it a bit ironic given the MIT climate simulator on HN yesterday - the biggest impact (in that simulator) to climate change was the land/agriculture methane. Right now the Dutch farmers are again harassing the country with their tractors on public roads, angry about what they feel is undue pressure to reduce their emissions. Maybe they'll get one or two more generations of farming as they hasten their own demis…

Can we also mention that most of the electricity in NL is made with coal and gaz, what a green country. https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=country&solar=false&rem...
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