Google claims copyright on employee side projects • Hacker News Board

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#171

Post by 8draco8 » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 2:24 PM UTC

Aissen wrote: post #158

tytso wrote: post #95

Oh, please. It's standard industry practice for companies to claim ownership of everything a software engineer comes up with, even "on their own time". The problem is it's extremely difficult to say, figure out when someone might have invented some super clever idea which can be pantented "on their own time". This was true when I worked for MIT, VA Linux, IBM, and Google. At VA Linux it was the VC's which insisted on…

Because it's standard industry practice, that's OK then ? Argumentum ad populum. You struck a good deal because of your ext4 maintainership and unique resume ? That's survivorship bias.

There's old, sarcastic, saying in my language for that: we should all eat shit, after all billions of flies can't be wrong!

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#172

Post by nurettin » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 2:24 PM UTC

>> And so I resolved to give zero shits from that point on about their IP ownership policies, and did whatever I wanted in my spare time.

should have done that in the beginning.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#173

Post by mcv » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #115

fierarul wrote: post #104

> Oh, please. It's standard industry practice for companies to claim ownership of everything a software engineer comes up with, even "on their own time". In the US. Problem is the US is infecting the rest of the world too, especially through subsidiaries which basically just translate from English the 'standard' employment contract. I had to refuse employment in Romania since the clauses were so broad and basically i…

> If the employer owns your brain 24h/day maybe the hourly rate your are getting is not such a great deal. If you're a software engineer for Google, it's a pretty good hourly rate.

In the case of those 6-digit salaries that Google engineers get, I admit it's not entirely unreasonable. If they really do want to own all your ideas and they're willing to pay extra for it, then why not? But know what you're agreeing to. And it's certainly not reasonable for a company paying you 5 figures to expect to own everything you think of.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#174

Post by masukomi » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

I've been able to alter that "we own your crap" section of every employment contract I've needed to. Don't sign. speak up. Carefully write and submit a reasonable alternative. This may be harder with megacorps...

With the prior company it was basically just altering it to say they don't own anything I created prior to my employment even if i continue to work on it and that I would give them notification for new projects.

This is a bit easier when your company does _one_ thing and you simply don't write any code related to that industry on your free time. Harder with a Google that does pretty much everything.

In general, you have the power to alter this and your NDA, as long as your suggestions are reasonable. I find it best to use my programmer brain and simple language to write out a very precise bit of replacement language and give it to them as a suggestion of what you want.

My co. just updated their NDA and I noticed my changes from when I was offered a job in the new version.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#175

Post by UweSchmidt » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 2:27 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #118

amelius wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is it's extremely difficult to say, figure out when someone might have invented some super clever idea which can be pantented "on their own time". That depends. If the employee's project is in an area that is completely different from what Google is doing, then it should be clear that there is no conflict. At least the wording in the contract should reflect that possibility.

If that is the case, Google has a process for explicitly relinquishing their claim on copyright to the creator. The intent of this policy is to make it clear that creators have to go through that process if they want to use something they fabricated as a side project independently.

That seems backwards. If you think something I have is yours, it's up to you to prove it.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#176

Post by shadowgovt » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #153

shadowgovt wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the employer owns your brain 24h/day maybe the hourly rate your are getting is not such a great deal. If you're a software engineer for Google, it's a pretty good hourly rate.

It’s not just a claim on some pseudo-equivalence with respect to hourly rate. It’s a claim on the possible future earnings resulting from the activity.

Future earnings that would be reflected in the share values of the stock that Google granted to the employee that created the copyrightable material.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#177

Post by kworker » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

q3k wrote: post #114

fierarul wrote: post #104

> Oh, please. It's standard industry practice for companies to claim ownership of everything a software engineer comes up with, even "on their own time". In the US. Problem is the US is infecting the rest of the world too, especially through subsidiaries which basically just translate from English the 'standard' employment contract. I had to refuse employment in Romania since the clauses were so broad and basically i…

Can confirm from my experience (~10 years in the industry). I've never even heard of this practice until I applied to Google. None of the EU companies I've worked at before had anything like this. None of the EU companies I've worked at since had anything like this. It's US imperialism, nothing less.

In the EU, the universities sometimes use this logic, so it's not totally unknown here either.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#178

Post by martius » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

repsilat wrote: post #167

martius wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a googler, I've got side projects, most of them are open-source. While I'd prefer not to think about all this and just code, I appreciate that there is an existing policy instead of a bad surprise in a few years. The current policy, which is 100% public ( https://opensource.google/docs/iarc/ ), is basically "let's assume that we own everything except what we don't, and let's figure things out before it's too late…

Also a googler. > because you think that a good open-source license will not protect you/your work from being stolen (!). My reason for wanting to keep copyright is that I want to be allowed to work on my code under the same name after I leave the company. I'd happily trade away that option if I were being paid to work on it, but if it's my hobby, and if (in my view, if not IARC's) it isn't related to my work or Goog…

I agree, but I think it's (mostly) not an issue. IIRC we're asked to use our corp email for contributions, unless we already have contributions under your own name/email address on the project.

I read this as:

* if you interacted with people on mailing list with your personal email address, it's OK to use your personal email address in the patches.

* if you are the maintainer of a project, use your own address (unless this is a google project, of course).

edit: don't get me wrong though, I don't like this clause, I just think it only matters in rare cases.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#179

Post by Zenbit_UX » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

tytso wrote: post #95

Oh, please. It's standard industry practice for companies to claim ownership of everything a software engineer comes up with, even "on their own time". The problem is it's extremely difficult to say, figure out when someone might have invented some super clever idea which can be pantented "on their own time". This was true when I worked for MIT, VA Linux, IBM, and Google. At VA Linux it was the VC's which insisted on…

> Oh, please. It's standard industry practice for companies to claim ownership of everything a software engineer comes up with, even "on their own time".

Is your argument really "it's no big deal cause everyone's doing it"?

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#180

Post by throwaway713 » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

Is California the only state in the U.S. where a company can not legally claim ownership of your side projects as long as they do not relate to company business?

I will eventually move out of the Bay Area, and this is my biggest concern for a new job. Financially, I don't have enough saved up to just quit and work on a startup for a year, but I also don't want my full time employer to own a side project that ends up being successful. What is the best way to handle this? How amenable are companies outside of California to negotiating away the invention assignment clause?