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Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

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Re: Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

#101

I took a year-long course in music theory as an undergrad; I loved it, and learned a great deal! I recommend sitting in on a university music theory course if it all possible. But, if not, I can at least recommend the textbook we used: Kostka and Payne's Tonal Harmony . If you want to learn slowly, from the beginning, it's a great resource. Our instructor told us that, by the end of the first semester, we would be wr…

Kostka and Payne is not usually recommended. Knowledgeable experts tend to prefer texts by Laitz, or Aldwell (previously, Aldwell & Schachter). Bear in mind though that the latter authors do require some 'intellectual' effort, but this will hopefully pay off in understanding. Kostka and Payne is the sort of textbook that's preferred by instructors at a music dept, where the students don't actually care that much about theory - it tends to emphasize unhelpful trivia, not what's most relevant.

Re: Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

#102

This isn't even vaguely related, but as someone who has never dabbled in music but had a bit of skill at drawing/painting, I have always wondered if there was some scheme to explain and produce music visually by drawing or painting. For example in such a scheme one would compose a piece of music by creating an aesthetically pleasing drawing in that visual formalism, rather than by how it sounds to the ear as musician…

Somewhat relevant, Lissajous Curves are a way of turning ratios of the Interval into oscilloscopic lines

Re: Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

#103
I'm learning by slowly building a music theory site, or rather a site that understands music theory so that I can ask it questions I sometimes find hard to answer online.

The first part is a chord namer, it's live but not perfect, there are many like it, but this is mine (I'll link below).

The second step which I'm part way through is creating a model to describe musical scales based on patterns from the root note. You might have read for example, that Major Scales all have the same pattern starting from the root note, which is Whole, Whole, Half, Whole, Whole, Whole, Half.

We can represent that in code as an array of integer counts of half steps, eg: [2,2,1,2,2,2,1]. From here, we can take an array of the note names, [ C, C#/Db, D, D#/Eb, E, F, F#/Gb, G, G#/Ab, A, A#/Bb, B ], then start on the index of the root note of the Major Scale we want. Lets do that by removing the notes not in the pattern below. We end up with the C Major scale:

[ C, -, D, -, E, F, -, G, -, A, -, B ](Returning to C for the final step in the pattern)

You can do this starting from any note, using that pattern, and end up with the right scale.

I was surprised to learn that while there are some edge cases, a huge portion of musical scales follow a pattern you can use to generate a named scale from the root note. It works for Major, Minor, Pentantonic scales, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor and so on.

This was a breakthrough for my understanding of music, and made me realize that memorizing scales is more about memorizing scale patterns, which drastically decreases the amount you need to memorize and lets you use foundational building blocks rather than arbitrary knowledge to play.

Another breakthrough for me while building the chord finder, was noticing that much of music theory is like that. It's all about learning the building blocks and applying it in real time, so that it sticks in your memory. All major chords are made of the same pattern, so if you have the root note, the major scale pattern, and the major chord pattern, you can quickly figure out any major chord, and later any complex chords, from there.

Chord progressions are the same! They follow patterns based on the scale. So when people say learning scales is important, they're not being preachy, it's because they are the basis for all music theory patterns.

https://whichchordisthis.com/

Re: Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

#104

Here's how I approach it: forget about all the historic naming like "perfect fifths" and just think in terms of the modern 12-note equal temperament. Every note is a number, e.g. 440 Herz = 69, the standard guitar tuning has strings from 40 to 64, etc. Every interval is an integer, up an octave is +12, major chord is a triple of {x, x+4, x+7}, minor seventh chord is {x, x+3, x+7, x+10} etc. Then, as a the second game…

While true this is way more complicated an explanation than using more traditional concepts. This also barely scratches the surface of useful music theory as it doesn't explain note relationships to one another. A 3rd, a 5th, a 7th, a 9th, etc are fundamentally important concepts to grasp. Also your comment about modes being the key to composing music intelligently is somewhat nonsense. Most jazz players will tell you that understanding the chord/melody relationship is far more important than worrying about what mode you're playing in, particularly in an improvisational setting. It's way more useful to understand that you're playing a ii v7 I and know what triads are available to you as well as maybe which color tones are useful to Target than to try to keep track of which mode you should/could play over a given chord. You're better off understanding the function of a chord in a key.

Re: Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

#105
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you foresee any need to communicate with other musicians I strongly recommend you don't forget about the "historic names". They're not historic, I'm a band leader and I use them constantly when communicating to my band members. Every musician in the local scene knows the difference between a Cmaj7 and a C7. If you train your brain to equate "C plus 7" as a fifth you're going to damage fluency greatly. Homebrewing…

Yes, but often improving the notation can make the concept more accessible to new comers, and many terms is usage among musicians can be rather u nintiuitive.

I don't agree that this is an improved notation at all. It has its advantages, it highlights the physical distance between notes in a uniform way across key signatures. But it obscures harmonic function, which is much more important.

Array indexes starting at 0 is unintuitive for beginners, I would never recommend a programming student learn arrays starting at 1 just to make it easier.

Proper playing technique is often unintuitive for the beginning musician, but encouraging it for accessibility will be destructive to their progress.

Conceptualizing a new difficult concept in a way that makes sense to you is good, foregoing convention is bad.

Re: Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

#106
It really depends on your objectives. If you want to compose pop music (including rock and electronic music) the risk is to lose yourself in complicated harmony "rules" that are mostly irrelevant to the style you want to play (on top of my mind parallel fifths prohibited in classical theory but they are commonplace in rock/metal) and only useful to analyze classical pieces.

Personally as a guitarist I kind of hacked my way into music theory to being able to improvise over and compose pop/rock/electronic by only using intervals and scale degrees. I can hear chords progressions, I know why a V I cadence works, can identify and play in modes (dorian, lydian...), but I can't name the notes so transcribing into a DAW is cumbersome but at least I can compose freely. Not ideal but considering the minimal time I invested it's a very good return for me.

Concretely the idea is to focus only on patterns and formulas. The steps would be to learn to play and hear intervals, then construct chords, e.g. Major chord is 4+3 semi-tones, minor is 3+4, another +3 is minor 7 or +4 for major 7. Then by using a scale (e.g white notes on the piano for key of C major/A minor) it's easy to find the chord on each degree. After that learn a few common chords progressions and being able to identify them in everyday songs should come naturally. Finally practice composing melodies by targeting chord tones and you are ready to start composing.

I found this video does a very good job at providing this overview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgaTLrZGlk0 (edit: the second half of the video).

Re: Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

#107

I've played guitar for almost 18 years and bass for roughly 5 years and also went to community college for theory and private instruction. Since then, I have recorded, played shows in various genres, and have toured the US and few places in Canada and Mexico. You need to be able to find time to synthesize learning how to read music, playing music that challenges you but is within reach of your ability, ear training,…

I imagine it's not really important to you now as you've turned the theory into an intuitive understanding for music itself, over the years you've been playing. Do you think you would have the same level of understanding had you had instead played entirely by ear for all those years, or do you think the theory helped you connect the concepts you felt better?

Re: Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

#108
post #29

The most important thing is to relate the theory you learn back to your instrument, and to use your ears as much as your brain. I have a hunch that so many of my engineer friends are musicians because music theory is happily systematic - it reminds me a lot of category theory & FP. It meshes perfectly with my brain at least - but just knowing theory without feeling it is useless. Learn to feel.

"music theory is happily systematic" Funny, when I tried multiple times to learn music theory it seemed very unsystematic to me, and more like the result of hundreds of years of accretion by lots of people who thought their own way and did not have any kind of coherent, overarching system or vision in mind. If it was more systematic it would have been a whole lot easier to learn.

It is actually pretty systematic, but with edge cases. The trouble I find with music theory teachings is they don't have systematic approaches at all, they use brute force memorization and some of the more shallow constructs. When you dig deeper, you can see the underlying patterns that created the things that get memorized.

Re: Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

#109

Put down the books and websites and articles. Write music.

I've done it this way for the whole 15+ years I've been playing and producing music. The problem is, I learned by ear (which seems to be a valued skill), but I can't for the life of me tell you which chord I just played or communicate effectively with more classically trained musicians.

This has led me to start learning music theory myself, as there is definitely value in the 'by-the-book' method as well. I believe the combination of both by-ear, and by-theory can increase the possibilities of composition. However I have also seen classically trained musicians not willing to step outside of the box because of the classical music theory mindset, too.

Re: Ask HN: How Can I Learn Music Theory?

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, they sounded different, so they wouldn't even be acoustically in-tune w/ the same notes. Each would only be in tune with its nearby notes on the "extended" cycle of fifths.

What does this mean for a piano keyboard, for example? Is the fact that it's the same key related to the fact that a piano cannot be perfectly tuned?

Yes, and it means that songs actually sound different when played in different keys. It's not just a shift up or down, the intervals within the song shift, if only slightly.
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