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Google claims copyright on employee side projects

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Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#101

Post by TrickyRick »

pinkfoot wrote: post #66
akuji1993 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is mostly a US thing. If I don't implement a DIRECT competitor to my company in my free time, the company can do absolutely nothing about it here. IF I implement a competitor and put it on the market, they can fire me. They can't however, sue me for the posession of the software. That's just a legal nightmare in the US.

Where is 'here'? Curious

Similar in Sweden, although most contracts allow for some compensation surrounding if you create a competing product without disclosing it.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#102

Post by Juliate »

tytso wrote: post #95

Oh, please. It's standard industry practice for companies to claim ownership of everything a software engineer comes up with, even "on their own time". The problem is it's extremely difficult to say, figure out when someone might have invented some super clever idea which can be pantented "on their own time". This was true when I worked for MIT, VA Linux, IBM, and Google. At VA Linux it was the VC's which insisted on…

That's very US industry centered practice. As such, it spread worldwide.

In France at least, negotiation is always open in your employment contract for specific permissions for personal work and open source contributions. I always mentionned that in interviews that went far enough, it also works as a good test.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#103

Post by Xylakant »

keiferski wrote: post #77
pinkfoot wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is 'here'? Curious

Post history indicates Germany.

The situation in Germany about ownership of stuff you developed in your company or spare time is substantially more nuanced than the GGP post describes. Matters get even more complicated when remote work and trust based working hours (aka: no time tracking) gets in the mix. Add permission to work on OSS in your working hours: Was that code done on company time or not?

There's an entire law about inventions made in your on and off time - the "Gesetz über Arbeitnehmererfindungen". It does cover inventions (patents or similar) that are related to your work, whether done during your work time or outside. (https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbnerfg/__4.html)

The law stipulates compensation and there's a separate set of compensation guidelines that takes into account how related to your work this invention is.

An employer can even claim right of first buy for inventions that are unrelated to the employees work (freie Erfindung), if the employer is active in the area of business that the invention covers (see https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbnerfg/__19.html)

Mind you, this is by law. Many employment contracts will only mention this in passing or not at all.

Now, most contributions to open source will not pass the bar to be an invention in the sense of the law. But if you come up with a novel solution for a hard problem, that might cross the boundaries.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#104

Post by fierarul »

> Oh, please. It's standard industry practice for companies to claim ownership of everything a software engineer comes up with, even "on their own time".

In the US. Problem is the US is infecting the rest of the world too, especially through subsidiaries which basically just translate from English the 'standard' employment contract.

I had to refuse employment in Romania since the clauses were so broad and basically illegal under Romanian law. (Of course, I had no interest in proving in court they were illegal but the contract was reviewed by an attorney on my side).

So, yeah, maybe apply some logic. If the employer owns your brain 24h/day maybe the hourly rate your are getting is not such a great deal.

And don't get me stared on clauses the survive the contract, including multi-year employment bans to competitors, etc. For a large multinational that basically mean you have to get a job landscaping or something because they compete with anybody would offer you a comparable job for your skills.

This 'standard industry practice' should die.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#105

Post by magicalhippo »

ghaff wrote: post #78
Eikon wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy that the "using X company equipment" legal basis works at all in those disputes. Most of the time, "equipment" seems to mean "laptop". IHMO when "equipment" is such a commodity as a laptop, this should never even be an issue. That's like a newspaper that would claims the work of one of it's journalist who is writing books on his personal time on the basis that the book was written with a pencil he brought…

The context of equipment here is (or should be) "all the expensive equipment in the lab that the employee couldn't possibly outfit themselves with." As you say, a generic laptop is awful close to being a pen and paper these days. That said, if this sort of thing is a potential issue for you, you're probably better off using a purely personal laptop or desktop that isn't used for work purposes at all.

> That said, if this sort of thing is a potential issue for you, you're probably better off using a purely personal laptop or desktop that isn't used for work purposes at all.

I got a similar clause, and this is indeed what I do. I think it's fair that they get copyright when they provide the software/hardware. It's also simple for me to avoid that, I just use my home computer with my own Windows license (or Linux) for any side projects.

I rejected the previous job offer due to a more general copyright claim to all my ideas ever. The current one only has the "using company equipment".

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#106

Post by degenerate »

vesche wrote: post #56

Are we really at the point where we're using 100 tweets to write what should be in a blog post?

Anything more than 2-3 tweets I paste into thread reader:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1207234468928356352.html

Twitter is cancer, and all we have to combat cancer is chemotherapy for now ;)

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#107

Post by onion2k »

kaisuketrax wrote: post #53

This is why the need for aliases and anonymity is crucial in these situations. Do your thing but if you value it, take necessary precautions.

Google could claim ownership and damages if you deliberately hid a successful side project from them. Even if they didn't find out, the risk would certainly be enough to scare off any potential investors or disrupt an exit.

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#108

Post by JoeAltmaier »

tytso wrote: post #95

Oh, please. It's standard industry practice for companies to claim ownership of everything a software engineer comes up with, even "on their own time". The problem is it's extremely difficult to say, figure out when someone might have invented some super clever idea which can be pantented "on their own time". This was true when I worked for MIT, VA Linux, IBM, and Google. At VA Linux it was the VC's which insisted on…

I thought California had explicit laws about employee rights in this matter?

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#109

Post by utopian3 »

rs23296008n1 wrote: post #36
S_A_P wrote: post #33

I do software consulting sleeved through various contracting or consulting companies. All of the paperwork I have to sign tries to have a claim to any IP created at the job. I immediately red line this unless there is some sort of reasonableness to it. I don’t mind giving some percentage of IP to a company that kept me busy somewhere for a year and the Resultant IP isn’t the main focus of the engagement. They are rig…

DRY?

Don’t Repeat Yourself, I presume

Re: Google claims copyright on employee side projects

#110

Post by tyingq »

powvans wrote: post #89
tyingq wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Imagine that a Michelin restaurant would claim copyright on the dishes cooked by the chef in his spare time." Not a Michelin restaurant, but apparently Outback Steakhouse makes that exact claim. "Inventions, Ideas, Processes, and Designs. All inventions, ideas, recipes, processes, programs, software, and designs ...conceived or made by Employee during the course of Employee’s employment with the Employer (whether or…

"WHEREAS, the Employee desires, on the terms and conditions stated herein, to be employed by the Employer as President." Seems reasonable for the President of the company. Do they make waiters and line cooks sign a similar contract?

Those contracts aren't public. My guess is yes for "head chef" or similar, because why would you put the word "recipe" in a President's contract? That boilerplate came from somewhere else.
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