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Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

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Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#581

Post by ummonk »

tanilama wrote: post #457
ramraj07 wrote: post #76

I was initially tempted to side with Google, a code review process is not just rigorous enough for catching features being sneaked in. However, it looks like the sole purpose of the extension is to warn employees about security issues in websites, and this engineer coopted that to show a union forming message. The final paragraph suggests that there's legal precedence for doing this: “You’re allowed to put posters up…

But everyone's laptop is NO public place, and this extension is installed under the endorsement and requirement of the company. For someone who doesn't agree with her message, this is best case to shove a message down your throat, worst case a security breach to their computer.

What do you mean by "someone who doesn't agree with her message"? You mean someone who believes that Googlers don't "have the right to participate in protected concerted activities"? That would just be ignorant of the law.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#582

Post by bluntfang »

ixtli wrote: post #55
Maxion wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm honestly a little surprised (and worried) about all the commenters who argue Google is in the right here.

People love to make excuses for their bosses because they believe their interests are aligned :(

one day they will be the boss and when they're the boss they aren't going to want their exploited employees to ruin their bottom line.

Spoiler alert: they're never gonna be the boss. It's like that meme where people on the poverty line vote against their interests because one day they think they're going to be the billionaire.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#583

Post by BickNowstrom »

fzeroracer wrote: post #548
BickNowstrom wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would start protesting Google if they did not fire a security engineer for abusing systems like this. A security engineer subverting internal security systems is what is messed up. Turning it all in a horrible PR story about a retaliatory union-busting firing should disqualify your career for many years to come. Maybe she can exchange this loss of career prospect for some activism credit against the Big Bad Google.…

Subverting internal security systems by going through the usual approvals process for a code review? When it was her job to add notices to the tool she was working on? And arguing that she deserves to have her career sunk because of it entirely? What absolute extreme bullshit. By your own arguments if a security engineer was advocating for increased security against management, they would be considered an activist an…

She was doing activism, not work. She knew damn well that she could not push without a code review, so she basically threw two colleagues under the bus (they were reprimanded).

She will get work somewhere else, but, to me, it does not look good to be fired for abusing internal security tooling, with the huge responsibility that security engineers have. Burning bridges and making a stink about it was her own choice, and this should have consequences, like crying about any other unrelated protected status (I did this very bad thing, but my employer fired me for racism, unionizing, being a (trans) woman, being old, etc.). You poison the well for everyone with that crap. Your group identity becomes so important to you, that you start to label individuals as "old white men" and anything negative happening to you must be related to your group identity. I don't play that game, so don't handicap me with your stereotypical groupthink.

The only one being tarred and feathered here is Google, for union-busting and retaliatory firing (as if... some even argue these firings target transgenders). Your example misrepresents my argument: advocating increased security against management is harmless and part of your job. Trying to be cute and score brownie points with activist pals is a risk she thought worth taking. Good on her.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#584

Post by [deleted] »

scarmig wrote: post #512
helen___keller wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agreed with this at first, but according to her medium post ( https://medium.com/@ksspiers/google-fires-another-worker-for... ) "Part of my job was to write browser notifications so that my coworkers can be automatically notified of employee guidelines and company policies while they surf the web" If this is true and her job is literally to create javascript notifications of company policy, then I think it's entire…

The extension is intended to inform Googlers of applications that are not approved for corp data, not just generic "employee guidelines and company policies." This is so you don't e.g. upload PII into a random unsecured S3 bucket. Yes, it's company policy, but this is more like running into a meeting and then interrupting it so you can start reciting NLRB policy than it is posting a flyer. Worse, it misappropriates a…

[deleted]

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#585

Post by TechBro8615 »

jdauriemma wrote: post #574
TechBro8615 wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m constantly baffled how Europeans, who get paid 50-60% as much as Americans, and have almost no innovative companies of their own, think their system is somehow better.

Can you define "their system" in plain language? Are you referring to unionization in particular, or are you framing a broader narrative?

I’m referring to unionization, since this is the topic of the post, but also the broader idea of top-down market regulation that includes provisions for workers rights and taxation of externalities, driven by generally left-leaning, anti-capitalist sentiment. In general, it seems Europeans expect more of their government than Americans do. Historically, Americans have tended to be more distrustful of their government, believing that the less it gets involved in their affairs, the better.

This distrust of government pushed the US toward a generally laissez-faire approach to regulation, while most European countries have gone the opposite direction. The approaches differ in terms of workers rights, labor laws, and taxation. Specifically, as a simple example, in the US, you can fire somebody whenever you want. Generally speaking, taxes are lower, it’s easier to start a company, and the regulatory environment is friendlier to business models driven by venture capital.

I’m arguing that it shouldn’t be a surprise, then, that the US has produced more innovation and economic capital than European countries, partially because the regulatory environment is friendlier and more encouraging of risk.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#586

Post by dunkelheit »

cousin_it wrote: post #538
scarmig wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The extension is intended to inform Googlers of applications that are not approved for corp data, not just generic "employee guidelines and company policies." This is so you don't e.g. upload PII into a random unsecured S3 bucket. Yes, it's company policy, but this is more like running into a meeting and then interrupting it so you can start reciting NLRB policy than it is posting a flyer. Worse, it misappropriates a…

Confirming this. The extension says it's for information security and privacy policy.

This is what I suspected and thanks for confirming this. The fact that she wrote that her job is to notify the employees "of employee guidelines and company policies" and chose to withhold the critical bit that it was specifically security policies she was responsible for looks like a deliberate attempt to mislead.

I totally support googlers' right to unionize but it seems that some employees are in an all-out war with the company and think that all is fair in that war. I can't say I support that.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#587

Post by ixtli »

jacquesm wrote: post #140
ixtli wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you can’t spend 53000 dollars on a Mac laptop last I checked, yes! However the whole purpose of a managerial hierarchy is to establish a responsibility chain so at very least I would expect the manager to also get fired. Google doesn’t care about these antics. They, like all employers, don’t want their employees to have meaningful bargaining power.

They did say Mac Pro: https://www.hardwarezone.com.sg/tech-news-fully-spec-apple-m... Taking into account the exchange rate that works out to about 55K USD.

Whoops you're right. I misread.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#588

Post by augbog »

helen___keller wrote: post #265
cj wrote: post #5

> Kathryn Spiers, who worked as a security engineer, updated an internal Chrome browser extension so that each time Google employees visited the website of IRI Consultants — the Troy, Michigan, firm that Google hired this year amid a groundswell of labor activism at the company — they would see a pop-up message that read: “Googlers have the right to participate in protected concerted activities.” So basically, the Go…

I agreed with this at first, but according to her medium post ( https://medium.com/@ksspiers/google-fires-another-worker-for... ) "Part of my job was to write browser notifications so that my coworkers can be automatically notified of employee guidelines and company policies while they surf the web" If this is true and her job is literally to create javascript notifications of company policy, then I think it's entire…

After reading both of these statements, idk I feel the grey area is large enough that it didn't necessarily justify firing but also I don't blame Google for doing so. Ugh.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#589

Post by ixtli »

bluntfang wrote: post #582
ixtli wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People love to make excuses for their bosses because they believe their interests are aligned :(

one day they will be the boss and when they're the boss they aren't going to want their exploited employees to ruin their bottom line. Spoiler alert: they're never gonna be the boss. It's like that meme where people on the poverty line vote against their interests because one day they think they're going to be the billionaire.

I agree. There's a scene from Futurama that is useful here :) https://i.redd.it/gy1a8j3rqhx21.jpg

Also for a less tongue-in-cheek response this is related to the notion of "false consciousness" first written about by Friedrich Engels in the 1800s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#590

Post by ummonk »

scarface74 wrote: post #202
danso wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FTA: " The tool is managed by the platform security team, for which Spiers worked for almost two years as a security engineer. "

Is it part of the security teams mission to insure legal compliance to workplace laws? I’m part of my company’s “architecture team” but that doesn’t mean I have the right (even though I do have the access) to spin up an X1 AWS instance at work with 2TB of RAM. If my immediate manager said it was okay, I would have sense enough to get it confirmed by my CTO.

Many startups have a culture where you could spin up an X1 AWS instance with 2TB of RAM if you need it, without having to go and get approval. Similarly, Google has a culture where engineers make various changes to internal tools without needing approval from higher ups.
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