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I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program

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Re: I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program

#121

Post by redthrowaway »

angrycoder wrote: post #76

This is based on the experience of getting my CS degree 10+ years ago. I'm not going to prefix every sentance with IMHO. Of course you don't know how to program, because most computer science programs suck. They teach how to code, the basic stuff like variables, if statements, loops, etc. You probably had a course in data structures and algorithms where you learned how to code your own lists and then how to sort them…

"They teach how to code, the basic stuff like variables, if statements, loops, etc. You probably had a course in data structures and algorithms where you learned how to code your own lists and then how to sort them. You probably learned about object oriented programming with tons of examples about how a dog is a type of animal or maybe a foo is a type of bar. You probably wrote a ton of little one off programs to count the words in a file, calculate fibonaci sequences, fling disks around the towers of hanoi, or calculate interest rates."

That was all first year in my program. Second year was algorithm design, architecture, source control, *nix devlopment, etc (in addition to math, technical writing, etc).

I don't think my school is particularly spectacular, but even in second year we've gone beyond what you describe, and the people who take the attitudes you talk about have failed out. I don't think most CS programs are as bad as you say.

Re: I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program

#122

Post by narrator »

abrenzel wrote: post #46
sophacles wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with pure pull is that you end up spending an inordinate amount of time reinventing the wheel, working towards one solution that you can see, while a much better and simpler solution is just around the corner because you don't have the breadth of knowledge to see past the sort of myopic view it provides. On the other hand a pure push approach results in lack of practical knowledge, and frequently a "purit…

Maybe the best thing to do is to try and sequence your "pushing" and "pulling." I actually graduated with a Political Science degree in 2009. I came to my first job not knowing a lick of programming, and the job didn't require it anyway. I got into programming because we were trying to do a website redesign and I wanted to help out. After we finished up that project, I kept going at because I liked it. The first 9-12…

I've taught computer science and I've seen that one's brain either understands computing concepts, or it doesn't. I've seen people with no programming experience pick it up pretty quickly. I've also seen people who were otherwise smart not get anywhere at all. If people can get past assignment, indirection, and boolean logic, they'll probably do fine. Understanding concurrency is also a sort of fundamental brain ability, but is something that fewer people have the ability for and is not necessary for every programming task.

Re: I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program

#123

Post by idm »

There is a difference between programming and engineering. I didn't take a software engineering course until after I graduated, but it was so worth it...

It's one thing to solve a problem once it's in front of you, but it's another to make the plan that exposes you to the problems, and keeps new problems coming along so that you can keep solving them, until one day... the project is done.

Re: I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program

#124

Post by RK »

scott_s wrote: post #98
markkat wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a pull-learner as well. My physics undergrad and grad courses occasionally required that we program in Fortran, -that's what our profs used. I once asked the head of our program why our degree didn't require any CS courses, but did require that we learn to code. She smiled and said "Well, we think you should just learn it." That short conversation made an impression on me. It wasn't in college study things, I wa…

A good friend of mine is doing her second postdoc in physics. She does cosmology, and spends much of her time programming. For that reason, she has expressed a regret that she did not get much CS background in undergrad. I find the attitude you expressed strange. They still insisted you take math courses, correct? Or did they say, "Well, we think you should just learn differential equations"?

As a physics undergrad we were told "you should probably learn a programming language", but were never given any specific course requirements (or suggestions that I remember).

I actually took multiple programming classes and ended up doing my PhD in computational physics. One of the biggest issues is that much of the software written by and for physicists tends to have very poor design, because they tend to learn the bare minimum necessary to get things to work (in Fortran no less).

They still insisted you take math courses, correct?

This is true, but we still learned a ton of math techniques in our physics classes. I must have learned Fourier transforms about 6 times (and finally understood them after the 3rd time or so :) )

Re: I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program

#125

Post by itsnotvalid »

narrator wrote: post #122
abrenzel wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the best thing to do is to try and sequence your "pushing" and "pulling." I actually graduated with a Political Science degree in 2009. I came to my first job not knowing a lick of programming, and the job didn't require it anyway. I got into programming because we were trying to do a website redesign and I wanted to help out. After we finished up that project, I kept going at because I liked it. The first 9-12…

I've taught computer science and I've seen that one's brain either understands computing concepts, or it doesn't. I've seen people with no programming experience pick it up pretty quickly. I've also seen people who were otherwise smart not get anywhere at all. If people can get past assignment, indirection, and boolean logic, they'll probably do fine. Understanding concurrency is also a sort of fundamental brain abil…

There are different fields within CompSci that different kinds of people, from Math-backed to social types would be required.

Re: I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program

#127

Post by rayval »

cletus wrote: post #67
lutorm wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Frankly, every good programmer I know started programming long before they went to college or at least programmed outside of college for their enjoyment. If you haven't done that and don't do that then I really have to question if you're in the right profession." Do you apply those standards to everyone, or just to programmers? If only programmers, why?

I personally don't know of any surgeons who performed surgery before going to medical school or outside of medical school for enjoyment.

Medicine is one class of skill.

However, there are others in the same vein as programming:

  * fine arts (drawing, painting)
  * music 
  * football and other sports
  * creative writing
I'd guess that any student majoring in the above fields already possessed basic (or even advanced) skills before entering the university.

On the other side, there are fields that are more "professional", where students only begin learning these disciplines at college:

  * medicine
  * psychology
  * economics
  * law
Obviously, students are exposed to concepts before college, but they wait until they get the professional credential before doing surgery, filing lawsuits, prescribing antidepressants, or raising interest rates.

Re: I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program

#129

Post by hessenwolf »

dominostars wrote: post #107
hessenwolf wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone you know knew how to program before college? Just curious: A. Were you born after 1990? B. Is nobody you know from even a slightly disadvantaged background?

You're responding to the quote of the comment I responded to. I've met many people who started programming late, that was my point.

d'oh.

Re: I'm graduating with a CS degree but I don't feel like I know how to program

#130

Post by tptacek »

stcredzero wrote: post #29
tom_b wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shining my tptacek light re: Applied Cryptography http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=639786 Thomas recommends Practical Cryptography instead.

I actually read Applied Cryptography when it first came out. My experience is that it convinced me that crypto is hard to do right not that it's easy. "Practical" will be my next technical read.

It came out in, like, 1995 didn't it? I remember that because all my IRC friends immediately got to work on crazy crypto tools with algorithms and ideas cadged from that book. It definitely didn't teach them that crypto was hard.
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