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United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

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241–250 of 373 posts

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The majority of "mass shootings" are gang violence, but gun control advocates will bring it up when there is a school/mall/etc. shooting to play on people's fears and make them believe that almost every day there is someone killing a bunch of kids in a school. I think the difference is gang shootings typically take place in rough neighborhoods. When you enter a high crime area you're aware of an elevated risk. Inno…

>Wether your pro or anti-gun no one wants the reality we have now where kids grow up with this kind of fear. The level of fear instilled into the population is wildly disconnected from the realities of risk and we've known this for decades. Whether it's the security theater at the airport, modern day duck-and-cover, or whatever the 6pm news is scaring old people with this week; the line of reasoning that goes somethi…

Totally agree.

The way to alleviate the fear is through education and turning off the dramatic, need FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) to sell things, "news".

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#242
post #2

While I am an opponent of gun control I will be glad to see this change go into effect. Ethical research shouldn't be constrained by politics, and the optics of the policy weren't great anyway...

The CDC has a history of anti gun bias. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/...

I'm not sure I trust this author to report accurately:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2014/02/24/lets-be-ve...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/12/03/yes-the-ov...

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#243
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because those shootings are probably in high gun control areas like Chicago, NJ, CA where laws are strictest, so it shows that gun control doesn't really work to stop those, and those deaths are usually the result overwhelmingly of handguns, not AR-15's or "assault style rifles" which are just semi-automatic rifles that look militaristic and no one would freak out about if they had wooden stocks. In this cas…

I'm really tired of this argument that people are irrationally afraid of black rifles and simply don't understand the machines they're purporting to regulate. These are devices that were designed to be field stripped by 18 year olds in a jungle. They're not that complicated. The Mini-14 (for example) has a wooden stock, and looks like something out of Little House On The Prairie, in part because it was brought to mar…

> This is the Nelson Muntz of firearms regulations argument. The original AWB proposals were sane and straightforward: they intended to regulate any semi-automatic long gun with a detachable magazine. It was the 2A crowd, and particularly the NRA, that fought off gun control advocates to the absurd position they occupy now.

This is a fair point. I think people underestimate the degree to which 2A advocates are playing from a position of strength. People here in Maryland probably don’t know that semi-automatic rifles remain completely legal notwithstanding the 2013 “ban.”

That raises the question though: presumably, gun control advocates were maneuvered onto this hard-to-defend ground be for reasons. Presumably, nobody could gin up enough support to take away semi-automatic hunting rifles from Minnesota Democrats.

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. A 9 MM rifle vs a 9 MM pistol both semiautomatic the main difference is accuracy and thats due to barrel length. You wont magically get bullets out faster. I feel like anybody wanting to pass gun laws in congress should take basic firearms courses. It takes a lot for me to be in the range as a newcomer and just shoot. I am convinced the issue isnt guns its the culture / mental state of the person with the gun…

This is literally untrue. 9mm ammo comes out of a longer barrel at higher velocity than out of a shorter. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

But it's still reliant on trigger pull. How quickly you shoot rounds is roughly similar, depending on the reset trigger of the gun. In some cases you get more rounds out quicker from a pistol, they might not have the same velocity or accuracy however.

Edit: In other words I'm talking about rate of bullets fired per second, and not how fast they leave the clip / magazine which is what you're talking about.

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#245
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mentioned large capacity magazines, forward grips, and a red dot sight. Not 'scopes' - which could mean many things, but I believe are more often referring to 4x,10, 16, etc magnified scopes that are more often used for long range hunting.. My point was that some of the 'assault rifle bans' are trying to stop simple things like a grip addon, a collapsible stock, an over 10rd magazine - any one of those things could…

I personally would want my Grandma to live in a safe neighbourhood, one that doesn't require her to have a weapon to defend herself. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/18/gun-ownership-... Their findings, published Wednesday in the prestigious American Journal of Medicine, debunk the historic belief among many people in the United States that guns make a country safer, they say. On the contrary, the US, with…

> the US, with the most guns per head in the world, has the highest rate of deaths from firearms, while Japan, which has the lowest rate of gun ownership, has the least.

Well, duh. I bet more people die from falling down stairs in multi-level houses than in single level.

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See the fact California started heavily restricting gun ownership once black people started exercising their Second Amendment rights (and that happened under a Republican government) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party

under a Republican government Actually, Democrats controlled the Assembly, and the Mulford Act didn't move until it had a majority of Democrat cosponsors.

It passed the Assembly in a bipartisan manner, but the governor was a republican (Reagan). It was also introduced by a republican (Mulford).

I didn't mean to excuse the Democrats who supported it, they were racist opportunists, I merely wanted to point out the CA Republican party dropped its principled support for 2nd Amendment Rights as soon as the people they would be protecting didn't look White like them.

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#247
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. The point that gets missed is that the contention is often less about the nuances of any particular firearm's capabilities and more about the common intentions of their use. EVERY gun is violent in the hands of someone trying to commit violence. Yet, mass shooters (who kill people in a particularly cruel manner, randomly, and that which is difficult for the average person to guard against) gravitate to assault…

mass shooters... gravitate to assault rifles Absolutely false. The vast majority of "mass shootings" are with handguns.

We have different definitions of mass shooters. I assume you advocate strongly, with great investments of time, energy, and money, to alleviate the ones I would say you're including erroneously, yes?

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. A 9 MM rifle vs a 9 MM pistol both semiautomatic the main difference is accuracy and thats due to barrel length. You wont magically get bullets out faster. I feel like anybody wanting to pass gun laws in congress should take basic firearms courses. It takes a lot for me to be in the range as a newcomer and just shoot. I am convinced the issue isnt guns its the culture / mental state of the person with the gun…

This is literally untrue. 9mm ammo comes out of a longer barrel at higher velocity than out of a shorter. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

Velocity isn't really what you care about though. I understand the point you're trying to make, but that table really points out that the type of the round you're using has a greater effect on velocity than the barrel length itself. The linked muzzle energy plot, which is what you really care about, shows this quite well, where we stay fairly stable for all tested rounds and fall off significantly at barrel lengths shorter than 7".

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scope of the second amendment is surely debatable. But Burger’s “epic rant” expresses a view of the second amendment that’s not only rejected by Heller , but was wrong from inception. The idea of the Second Amendment as protecting a collective right is irreconcilable with the text: http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/common.htm . See also: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/us/06firearms.html . Reading the contempora…

Justice Stevens has a better write up in the Atlantic about his issues with the Heller verdict. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/05/john-paul-...

A lot of ink has been spilled on Heller, but here's my two cents on why I don't find Stevens' reasoning compelling.

> Point 1: "When I joined the Supreme Court in 1975, both state and federal judges accepted the Court’s unanimous decision in United States v. Miller as having established that the Second Amendment’s protection of the right to bear arms was possessed only by members of the militia and applied only to weapons used by the militia."

A lot of precedent that was on the books when Stevens joined the Supreme Court in 1975 was wrong. At that time, the Supreme Court had gutted federalism using the Commerce Clause in Wickard v. Fillburn. 20 years later, Lopez started getting things back on track. It wasn't until the 1990s that New York v. United States and Printz gave teeth to the Tenth Amendment. There is hope yet of undoing some of the damage wrought on contractual freedoms by FDR's unconstitutional threats of court packing.

> Point 2: "Colonial history contains many examples of firearm regulations in urban areas that imposed obstacles to their use for protection of the home."

These regulations aren't actually inconsistent with the Second Amendment being an individual right. Note first that Stevens is engaged in a bit of a motte-and-bailey argument. The general proposition of his argument is that the Second Amendment is an individual right. But he's recycling arguments from Heller, where the dissent took a narrower tack: urban areas present unique challenges that may justify burdening Second Amendment rights. The latter argument is obviously narrower and easier to defend than the more general one. Second, the laws he cites, such as regulations on gun powder storage, can be justified as neutral as to gun rights. Wooden cities at the time were highly flammable and it made sense to regulate gun powder storage for fire reasons. That may be justifiable, even if it has an incidental effect on second amendment rights. But that doesn't mean that, in 1789 Boston, a gun ban--a direct attack on second amendment rights--would've been considered acceptable.

> Point 3: "Until Heller, the invalidity of Second Amendment–based objections to firearms regulations had been uncontroversial."

For that point, he cites 20th-century legislation. That tells us nothing about what the Second Amendment means. Lots of unconstitutional laws were enacted with minor opposition at the time.

> Point 4: "So well settled was the issue that, speaking on the PBS NewsHour in 1991, the retired Chief Justice Warren Burger described the National Rifle Association’s lobbying in support of an expansive interpretation of the Second Amendment in these terms: “One of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word fraud, on the American public by special-interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime."

Again, this just means the Supreme Court believed in its incorrect precedent, until it didn't. It doesn't tell us anything about what the Second Amendment means. What Madison wrote in Federalist #46, however, does: https://www.constitution.org/fed/federa46.htm

> Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it.

He criticizes European governments for being "afraid to trust the people with arms." He's clearly talking about armed citizens. He also conceives of those armed citizens organizing at the local level to overthrow the national government. But in his conception, the militia is BYOG (bring-your-own-gun). The right to bear arms doesn't attach to the militia itself. It attaches to "the people," who may then be organized into militias.

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The majority of "mass shootings" are gang violence, but gun control advocates will bring it up when there is a school/mall/etc. shooting to play on people's fears and make them believe that almost every day there is someone killing a bunch of kids in a school. I think the difference is gang shootings typically take place in rough neighborhoods. When you enter a high crime area you're aware of an elevated risk. Inno…

>Wether your pro or anti-gun no one wants the reality we have now where kids grow up with this kind of fear. The level of fear instilled into the population is wildly disconnected from the realities of risk and we've known this for decades. Whether it's the security theater at the airport, modern day duck-and-cover, or whatever the 6pm news is scaring old people with this week; the line of reasoning that goes somethi…

> "we taught people to fear risk X, the way to alleviate the fear is to reduce the likelihood of X" is the most asinine bullshit in the world.

The US was a scary place after 9/11. I'm sure a lot of money was wasted in domestic security that didn't do anything, but I'm glad we made an effort to reduce the likelihood of future terrorist attacks rather than just reinforcing how incredibly rare they are.

We can't stop terrorism or mass shootings but we should try to make it as difficult as possible even if they are rare events.

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