Live data from Hacker News

Climbing the Wealth Ladder

ofdollarsanddata.com

21–30 of 323 posts

Re: Climbing the Wealth Ladder

#21
post #5

im presently reading Paul Fussells "Class" and this is a fascinating take on the idea in the age of wage stagnation. >the best way to climb the wealth ladder is to spend money according to your level. This is directly contradictory to, and detrimental to, how the US Economy expects its consumers to act. Credit has largely filled the gap of wages and productivity such that consumers now have no real sense of their lev…

I think the hidden danger in this model, which I think about a lot, is that doing philanthropy is shown as an activity you can’t afford to do until you are very wealthy.

The trick is to do good for the world long, long before then. You shouldn’t need to be wealthy to volunteer a few hours a month..

Before anyone judges me negatively, I say this as someone who has spent the vast majority of my lifetime trying to “climb a ladder” only to want to get to a point where I can give my resources away for free to help others. But I have never figured out how, and then one day it just struck me, why can’t I jump to level 6 now without the money, and maybe that might just be what’s wrong with the money driven world somehow, or at least my understanding of it.

I feel like if I could understand how to not care/worry about the money then I could free up the mind and energy to do something better for the world, and I want to.

And then I realize the counterpoint that we have to work within the rules of the system, too, and the system is much more cruel and demanding than I wish it was.

Re: Climbing the Wealth Ladder

#22
post #16

I have a problem tying wealth to consumption. I always look at menu prices but I'm a lot better off financially than many people who don't seem to care how much they spend. Maybe because I do look at menu prices. Other than that, this is basically a base 10 view of wealth. Each zero matters as much to you as the last one. Under that theory, Bloomberg is to me as I am to someone living paycheck to paycheck, but I feel…

I agree. This article does not mention that your life and upbringing play a major role on how you think about money. I know many folks that are well off but they are still frugal. They care about the cost of groceries, the cost of restaurants, etc. They don't need to but they choose to. They lived the majority of their lives without this kind of comfort -- some behavior cannot be changed when it is learned and repeated over time. The value of money has become a part of their values. I admire it to a certain extent. Even if they win the lotto they would probably donate most to a good cause and continue to nickel and dime.

Re: Climbing the Wealth Ladder

#23

I understand this isn't the point of the article, but it seems like a roundabout way of saying "don't overspend". This part in particular bothers me : > More importantly though, the best way to climb the wealth ladder is to spend money according to your level. As far as I (a non-economist) can personally tell, any notion of climbing up some abstract wealth ladder is synonym with a salary increase for the vast majorit…

I would concur. However, spending wisely needs coupled with higher income. That's what most people don't apply. Save 10% or more of your income at all times, see your revenue continously increasing, even if not tremendously, and in matter of a few years you can start investing (housing, business, whatever)

See yourself spending near all you get, even getting significant income increases and you get stuck into a loop of ever spending more. Its also very risky, as if that incomes downfalls, it can easily cost you all the small stupidly useless property you already have.

I think the idea is to control your spending and find ways to increase income. I bet jayz continuously did that or he would have ended up like many other stars who lost it all. Or maybe just luck/talent..

Re: Climbing the Wealth Ladder

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so sure, personally. The six levels: Level 1. Paycheck-to-paycheck: You are conscious of every dollar you spend. This includes people with crippling debt. Level 2. Grocery freedom: How much specific grocery items cost don’t impact your finances. Level 3. Restaurant freedom: You eat what you want at restaurants regardless of the cost. Level 4. Travel freedom: You travel when you want, how you want, and stay wh…

I think the labels are not very helpful, but tying each level to 0.01% of an individuals net worth is. For example, I still don't flinch at paying 1 or 2 dollars more for items at the grocery store, but I do for paying 10-20 dollars more for items at a restaurant. "Travel" can mean grey hounds and motels, or first-class flights and luxury hotels. Philanthropy can be donating $100,000 or giving a buck to a guy on the…

I agree with the concept of the levels, I disagree with the ordering - particularly the final one, because philanthropy is something that almost everyone can practice, it's an individual choice.

The idea that you must first have your entire life laid out with a massive house and first class flights and stuff before you start helping others is deeply wrong IMO.

Re: Climbing the Wealth Ladder

#25
post #5

im presently reading Paul Fussells "Class" and this is a fascinating take on the idea in the age of wage stagnation. >the best way to climb the wealth ladder is to spend money according to your level. This is directly contradictory to, and detrimental to, how the US Economy expects its consumers to act. Credit has largely filled the gap of wages and productivity such that consumers now have no real sense of their lev…

I think the hidden danger in this model, which I think about a lot, is that doing philanthropy is shown as an activity you can’t afford to do until you are very wealthy. The trick is to do good for the world long, long before then. You shouldn’t need to be wealthy to volunteer a few hours a month.. Before anyone judges me negatively, I say this as someone who has spent the vast majority of my lifetime trying to “clim…

I think you got it!

The is a paradox in 'climbing the ladder' and giving away financial resources. Simply because, in the competitive market, you aggregate resources by taking it from others. Either competitors or random individuals. Philanthropy should start giving away those resources to the actors most in need, and they may be very close to your activities, but then you can't aggregate and climb up. The market doesn't have sympathy, and lack of resources can be devastating during tough times.

Don't climb the ladder. Who cares.

Re: Climbing the Wealth Ladder

#26
The 0.01% of liquid net worth concept is useful.

The rest of the article is not very useful. The higher one's liquid net worth, the more differences in priorities and consumption patterns.

Re: Climbing the Wealth Ladder

#27
I'm really not a fan of this breakdown because it seems to put each order of magnitude increase in liquid net worth as equal space on the graph. What percentage of people fall into each level. Maybe 50-60% of American adults fall into level 1?

Surely, most folks will never reach Level 3 on this chart. While this is an interesting way for someone who has made significant increases in their income over the years, I don't think the thesis holds that the best way to increase your ladder is to just save money.

We're all (or mostly all) wage earners here. Whether you are making $15/hour at a fast food gig, or $200+/hour as an engineer, you aren't going to save yourself into a new level. Saving might take some pressure off, and make you a little more comfortable within your level, sure, but for most people, it isn't reasonable for them to save 10 times the money they already have liquid without changing their income.

The idea that we're all just a few 'steps' away from being independently wealthy is one of the worst parts of American culture in my experience. The individualism that follows from "if I can just outcompete someone else" seems to me to be the root cause of things like a general anti-labor sentiment, minimum wages as low as $2.13/hour, etc.

Re: Climbing the Wealth Ladder

#28
post #6
post #4

The article completely ignores the last and most important level of wealth, which is being financial independent. Being able to pay for rent, food, healthcare etc. for the rest of your life without the need of a day job will probably have the biggest impact on your life.

That's completely tangential to this article though. It depends on what your definition of that is, and some people handle it better than others. You see those people retiring on 500k (for a couple) and living in a van or something at one extreme. Then there's folks making 500k+/yr and somehow manage to spend most of it without saving any of it. Independence is a state of mind, not a dollar amount.

> Independence is a state of mind, not a dollar amount.

This is only true if you have no debt. Even in your low-end example you need a net worth of 250k, which is a non trivial amount of money for most people. And I would still call it naive, it's just not enough.

Financial independence to me is, having other assets than your time which will pay for your most basic needs. Living in a van probably means doing a lot of stuff by yourself, which requires a lot of time.

Re: Climbing the Wealth Ladder

#29

I understand this isn't the point of the article, but it seems like a roundabout way of saying "don't overspend". This part in particular bothers me : > More importantly though, the best way to climb the wealth ladder is to spend money according to your level. As far as I (a non-economist) can personally tell, any notion of climbing up some abstract wealth ladder is synonym with a salary increase for the vast majorit…

Yup. I see this kind of logic in personal finance discussions all the time but it's bullshit. There simply aren't any spending decisions you can make that will change you from not wealthy to really wealthy. Those things can just move you from poor to middle class at best, or to a better level of middle class.

Outside of real outlier status where you're paid really, really large amounts of money for your services (like notable entertainer or cardiac surgeon) the way to wealth is to own the means of production. Period.

Same as it ever was.

Re: Climbing the Wealth Ladder

#30

I understand this isn't the point of the article, but it seems like a roundabout way of saying "don't overspend". This part in particular bothers me : > More importantly though, the best way to climb the wealth ladder is to spend money according to your level. As far as I (a non-economist) can personally tell, any notion of climbing up some abstract wealth ladder is synonym with a salary increase for the vast majorit…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN