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United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

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Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#181
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because those shootings are probably in high gun control areas like Chicago, NJ, CA where laws are strictest, so it shows that gun control doesn't really work to stop those, and those deaths are usually the result overwhelmingly of handguns, not AR-15's or "assault style rifles" which are just semi-automatic rifles that look militaristic and no one would freak out about if they had wooden stocks. In this cas…

I'm really tired of this argument that people are irrationally afraid of black rifles and simply don't understand the machines they're purporting to regulate. These are devices that were designed to be field stripped by 18 year olds in a jungle. They're not that complicated. The Mini-14 (for example) has a wooden stock, and looks like something out of Little House On The Prairie, in part because it was brought to mar…

An AK-47 is a fully automatic rifle.

People argue AR-15 are "fully semi-automatic rifles" which is an oxymoron or "assault style" or that AR stands for "assault rifle". This is the level of ignorance and misinformation in the debate I'm addressing.

An Assault or Automatic rifle can fire multiple round bursts and an AR-15 is no more dangerous than any other semi-automatic weapon (like a standard Glock pistol). You conflate it with an M-16, just like every other ignorant person. An M-16 fires multi round bursts, an AR-15 is single trigger pull, single bullet fire, just like any other rifle a citizen can legally purchase without a special license including the wood stock hunting rifle with a scope that hunters would use to drop a large buck, bear, or boar (which are often larger caliber in those cases). AR-15's are heavily modifiable, easy to repair, reliable, and use the same 5.56 NATO ammo so the ammo is cheap and can be bought surplus. If they were in anyway similar to an M-16 in anyway that mattered (meaning they can fire multiple bullets in a single trigger pull), you'd get a nice raid from the ATF. The AR-15, just like a semi-automatic pistol or hunting rifle requires you to pull the trigger again for each bullet you want to fire. The argument here singling out this gun because its popular with everyone, including crazy people doesn't make a bit of difference in making anyone safe if someone buys another semi-automatic rifle and does the same thing, or just carries two pistols (as was the case at VA Tech).

Again, these are laws nitpicking over a gun that is a rifle, when rifles account for < 4% of gun deaths in a country where gun violence isn't the major cause of death and stabbings/homicide and mass murders and bombings and shootings are still massive problems in other western countries with outright gun bans. It's not a rational application of our time and attention for the best effect and preventing unwanted death and homicide. Your argument is driven by media sensationalism, that is profit and ratings driven, real gun policy requires dealing with the boring every day pistol and criminal violence, and the underlying causes of violence and crime. The people saying no one needs guns have armed guards and security personnel and can afford to live in very safe upper crust neighborhoods or regions like Martha's Vineyard or in penthouses with door men, or gated communities. They live in San Francisco, not Oakland, they live in NYC or downtown Manhattan, not Camden, NJ. They can walk to a police station, they're not 30 minutes drive from the local county sheriff. It's the height of privileged people dictating policy for an environment they're isolated and protected themselves from. It's okay if they ban guns because it doesn't truly effect them in any meaningful way. Unless they're on the receiving end like the HK government, in which case its probably best for you you keep the average citizen disarmed.

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ok! Is there perhaps a less messy way to do it than a gun? Of course. And maybe we should encourage people to pursue those alternatives if they're sure in their decision, and maybe take some time to contemplate whether it's what they really want before doing something they can't undo. But we need to do that anyway , because even without a gun, someone may have a rope on hand, or a bottle of pills. We need to addres…

Neither rope nor pills are as easy to use, fast, or as lethal as death by gun. Pills particularly are a really bad example. People mess it up all the time. Pills and rope have the added bonus of not being as lethal in other situations either. Pills and rope: 1, guns: 0

Unless pills and rope are never fatal, that doesn't really matter, because we still need to solve it for the times that they are. And if we do then it doesn't matter how fatal the method is because there is no longer an attempt.

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I see it the opposite way: America's infatuation with guns reflects a world where your fellow citizens are wild animals to be fended off with lethal threat, and your government is run by dangerous criminals ready to take you and your freedom by brute force. This is a world built upon the lowest common denominator of civilization.

> your government is run by dangerous criminals ready to take you and your freedom by brute force. Even more interesting to me is the idea that the American government has such a hold over the patriots in the military that they could be commanded to enforce tyranny. Or, that owning an assault rifle is some antidote against the best funded military in the world, which has been fighting armed insurgencies for years.

You mean losing to insurgencies for years?

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#184
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also have a history of anti malaria bias. Public health agency finds that guns kill people, recommends fewer guns, news at 11

cars kill thousands of kids, recommend fewer cars swimming pools kill a thousand, recommend banning swimming pools drugs kill a thousand, make drugs illegal with huge jail terms. wait, that doesn't work. why are there thousands of kids handling guns fine without accidents in rural areas and thousands getting killed by a few hundred in urban areas. it's much more complex than just fewer guns, no private pool ownership…

Cars are heavily regulated. They have a visible registration plate on them, with a unique number associated to the owner. Operating one requires to be a license given after a test on both theory and operation. They need to be insured. All these are actually enforced by police.

If you are arguing for all this to be equally applied to guns (as would be fairly rational) then congratulation, you are pro-gun control.

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm really tired of this argument that people are irrationally afraid of black rifles and simply don't understand the machines they're purporting to regulate. Given that more people are killed with hands and feet than are killed with rifles of any kind, "assault" or otherwise, yes, it's an irrational fear. Source: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-... For 2018, the numbers are: Rifles: 297…

Do you think people advocating gun control haven't considered these numbers? Heart disease kills more people than crime of all sorts. We still generally want police departments. Is there some book or FAQ these arguments all get sourced from? They always seem to be the same ones. At this point, I'm not even annoyed that people disagree with me about firearms, but just that their arguments are so boring .

You can't feel the arguments from the gun-control crowd are any less boring than your arguments, right? It's been the same shit for ages.

The whole debate is boring, crazy that we keep delving into it.

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm really tired of this argument that people are irrationally afraid of black rifles and simply don't understand the machines they're purporting to regulate. Given that more people are killed with hands and feet than are killed with rifles of any kind, "assault" or otherwise, yes, it's an irrational fear. Source: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-... For 2018, the numbers are: Rifles: 297…

Do you think people advocating gun control haven't considered these numbers? Heart disease kills more people than crime of all sorts. We still generally want police departments. Is there some book or FAQ these arguments all get sourced from? They always seem to be the same ones. At this point, I'm not even annoyed that people disagree with me about firearms, but just that their arguments are so boring .

By the same argument police departments don't respond in the two minutes it takes for a violent incident to take place, even more so the further outside a city center you are. So even though fires don't happen often, you still keep a fire extinguisher, the same argument is used for home defense.

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#187
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A shotgun is actually pretty reasonable Urban defense, particularly with lead shot that isn't too large. Rifles are a big no no though. They can carry very far and overpenetrate.

I've been contemplating bear spray to fill that role. Deployed in the confines of our home, it would put both us and any assailant in a world of hurt, but nobody has to die (and, if turned against us, we might suffer far less). Even bird shot, fired from within our house, could easily kill our nearest neighbors. They're less than 10m away, and separated only by plate glass. The buckshot that my father has selected fo…

If the assailant is armed, they can still fire at you. It won't really work. If a criminal can shoot back or attack after getting shot, especially one that is high, mace isn't going to do it, just ask law enforcement. Criminals will always have access to guns despite the law.

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#188
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because those shootings are probably in high gun control areas like Chicago, NJ, CA where laws are strictest, so it shows that gun control doesn't really work to stop those, and those deaths are usually the result overwhelmingly of handguns, not AR-15's or "assault style rifles" which are just semi-automatic rifles that look militaristic and no one would freak out about if they had wooden stocks. In this cas…

I'm really tired of this argument that people are irrationally afraid of black rifles and simply don't understand the machines they're purporting to regulate. These are devices that were designed to be field stripped by 18 year olds in a jungle. They're not that complicated. The Mini-14 (for example) has a wooden stock, and looks like something out of Little House On The Prairie, in part because it was brought to mar…

Instead of replying with a bunch of counter arguments to some random person on HN, why don't you make a proposal?

What is your idea? How should guns be regulated in America.

I'm fucking tired of this same "we need to do something" argument all the time, with nobody ever actually saying anything at all.

Like no shit, something should be done.

You got a idea? What is it?

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#189
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cars kill thousands of kids, recommend fewer cars swimming pools kill a thousand, recommend banning swimming pools drugs kill a thousand, make drugs illegal with huge jail terms. wait, that doesn't work. why are there thousands of kids handling guns fine without accidents in rural areas and thousands getting killed by a few hundred in urban areas. it's much more complex than just fewer guns, no private pool ownership…

The CDC is way ahead of you https://www.cdc.gov/features/healthyswimming/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/vitalsigns/motor-vehicle-safety/index.ht...

I think it's great they are helping to educate about safer ways to engage with swimming sports and driving.

They could do the same with guns.. but I guess we instead rely on the NRA, NSSF, and a few others.. some hunter's education classes that some places offer and the very few schools that teach these things.

I do not see the CDC recommending less pools, or less cars, unlike their 'conclusion that less guns would mean less kid problems' - so maybe they are way ahead of themselves.

I am all for more education the better, and as it would not affect me personally - ban swimming pools, get a special license to have more than 10 gallons of water, and if someone breaks one of the top 4 bullet points from the CDC on safe swimming, then make them a felon and take away other rights.

Won't bother me, and it will make the world a safer place for many kids.

/not-serious, don't take it too seriously, just sayin' for thoughts sake

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cars kill thousands of kids, recommend fewer cars swimming pools kill a thousand, recommend banning swimming pools drugs kill a thousand, make drugs illegal with huge jail terms. wait, that doesn't work. why are there thousands of kids handling guns fine without accidents in rural areas and thousands getting killed by a few hundred in urban areas. it's much more complex than just fewer guns, no private pool ownership…

Cars are heavily regulated. They have a visible registration plate on them, with a unique number associated to the owner. Operating one requires to be a license given after a test on both theory and operation. They need to be insured. All these are actually enforced by police. If you are arguing for all this to be equally applied to guns (as would be fairly rational) then congratulation, you are pro-gun control.

no - not at all - you are moving the goalposts from deaths of children and inanimate things that 'cause them' - to "all these things people have to do to drive cars" - that makes it even worse actually.. if you apply all that stuff to gun control - you see that there are still plenty of deaths caused by them, and plenty of people getting them, and using them illegally.

the point was banning a thing because a few people use it improperly is not the way to go with something so important as guns - which are more important than cars.. maybe, maybe not with drugs depending on health conditions, certainly more important than swimming pools.

we already have more gun control than is needed, what we need is more education and more resources.

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