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Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

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Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#71

Post by jrrrr »

kaffeemitsahne wrote: post #65
dbcurtis wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the early days, farm tractors were pretty simple, and many farmers did a lot of their own work. As machines got bigger, most used local repair shops that could always order from parts depots. But as electronics has invaded tractors (for many good reasons) it has gotten to the point where you really need the diagnostic equipment. So this is a lot like what auto repair was in the early days of the diagnostic plug-in…

I still don't get from your description what the point or motive would be. Who is locking in whom, for what purpose?

The manufacturer of the complicated machine is withholding diagnostic tools, locking out owners and independent repair shops, in order to protect their own dealership/service business.

From the article:

> A Crain’s Chicago Business article reported that dealers make five times the profit margin off repair than they do off the sale of new equipment.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#72

Post by zozbot234 »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #29
eastof wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get really good support from Lineage OS for years to come. Been running it on all my android devices for years. The flagship models like Pixel usually have the best ongoing support.

> The flagship models like Pixel usually have the best ongoing support. When was the last time you checked on this? As far as I can see, LineageOS support is pretty much restricted to phones that have had it for years. There is no hope if you have a recent phone. There's also no hope if you have an old phone, unless it's already supported. For example, the most recent Pixel with support is... the Pixel. The original.

> There is no hope if you have a recent phone.

OnePlus 6, 6T, 7 Pro - these are not "old" devices. Granted, you might argue that OnePlus doesn't count, lol.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#73

Post by ChicagoBoy11 »

vorpalhex wrote: post #68
probably_wrong wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that I agree with them, but some of the rationales I heard: That it makes a company liable in case someone repairs their truck and it blows up, since they can't prove that the two were related. Also to consider: the machine blows up after a repair, but it's not related to that. That it might force companies to publish business secrets: with machine being full of computers nowadays, they might be forced to reveal…

> That it makes a company liable in case someone repairs their truck and it blows up Is this the case for auto shops now? > That it might force companies to publish business secrets There are many, many ways to compile and preserve business secrets in blobs, but there's probably a fundamental issue if you're dependent on that. > someone finds a flaw in the API, uses it to ruin other people's machines, and then the co…

... and as true as that could be in theory, doesn't mean that it couldn't essentially bankrupt a business model that has built a lot of these companies. My family is in heavy farm equipment sales, and the reality is that without the margins on parts and repair, a lot of those business just aren't viable. The lock-in is there to really prevent the fundamental underpinning of their business model. Not saying it is correct or ethical, but it is the economic reality of how a lot of those businesses are structured.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#74

Post by trenning »

wiremine wrote: post #58

Disclaimer: I'm a VP for an IoT software company. I also grew up in farming communities. I'm all for the right to repair, but I'm concerned we're creating a bit of false hope for famers. As more and more software gets injected into the equipment, "fixing" things requires touching both the physical devices and the software. Obviously, the right to repair for non-software related problems is easy to understand. I'm won…

Look to the automotive industry then. I owned a shop as a mechanic for several years working on euro cars mainly as well as a lot of track cars. The software in cars has gotten insanely advanced, and yet independent shops are still able to service cars because there's support from 3rd parties on diagnostic equipment from companies like Snap-on who make diagnostic equipment.

Look at the auto enthusiast market for standalone ECUs that have been common for years. ECUs in modern cars are black boxes that are reverse engineered for aftermarket purposes. Software isn't a wall that can't be breached.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#75

Post by jay_kyburz »

squish78 wrote: post #59

This is excellent news, and good awareness for the ag sector. The most existential threat to human survival is the consolidation of the farm sector. If any industry needs to be decentralized (for the sake of resiliency) it's agriculture. We don't want to create single points of failure in the food supply Urban USA doesn't can't comprehend the fact that famine is a logistical possibility if finance/tech fucks up farmi…

Many people will argue that finance / tech have already fucked up farming.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#76

Post by viggity »

yobananaboy wrote: post #9

I'm shocked someone actually voted no. What would their justification for that vote be? Legit curious if they had a proper argument, didn't understand the issue, or if it was some type of corporate influence.

I like to play devil's advocate...

Imagine this - a sprayer stops working for any reason. Farmer purchases a non-oem electronics replacement part, but that part used a counterfeit FTDI usb controller but it silently fails. Now, the signal to turn off the sprayer when it approaches a waterway, or a school doesn't happen like it should. Obviously, the replacement part maker should take all the blame. But do you think the media is going to wait for an investigation as to why it didn't turn off, or are they going to roll footage of the gigantic green tractor and the sprayer it is towing?

What if the replacement part doesn't properly sense that an access cover is open and ergo it doesn't fail safely and crushes the farmers arm and ultimately kills him? What if a bug in the software causes this error to only happen on one day or the year, or only when it is between 4:30 and 5:00?

You can bet your ass that JD is testing the ever loving hell out of their parts, but is the replacement manufacturer? This isn't a physical device like a bearing that requires dimensional accuracy, or proper loading capacity. It is so, so, so much more complicated than that. How would you feel if self driving cars on the road had sensors that weren't properly vetted by their manufacturer. It isn't just the driver that is put in danger, it is everyone around them. The same goes for a sprayer and waterways.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#77

Post by zozbot234 »

vorpalhex wrote: post #63
thaumasiotes wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The flagship models like Pixel usually have the best ongoing support. When was the last time you checked on this? As far as I can see, LineageOS support is pretty much restricted to phones that have had it for years. There is no hope if you have a recent phone. There's also no hope if you have an old phone, unless it's already supported. For example, the most recent Pixel with support is... the Pixel. The original.

Lineage depends on the community to issue device specific builds. For instance, my dual sim traveling phone has no official Lineage support, but is well supported through the community (and indeed, everything works quite well). I do wish Lineage had a way to promote and adopt community versions more officially.

Can't have "official" support unless everything is working. "Promoting" beta-level code would be a disaster.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#78

Post by stingraycharles »

THJr wrote: post #21
korabas wrote: post #8

Honest question: what would be the rationale to prevent farmers from repairing their machinery themselves instead of through the manufacturer (in this case, Deere)? To my mind, from the point of view of the "user" (i.e. the farmer), that can be seen as somewhat monopolistic. I tried to find similarities between this situation and that of Apple not letting users tamper with their hardware, but it could be argued that…

There's a number of reasons, but as I understand the main issue is that John Deere is treating their tractor's firmware like the music industry was treating MP3's. They say farmers may own the tractor itself, and the hardware, but they're only licensing the use of the firmware and don't have the right to modify it. (Which can be necessary when repairing a tractor that has many computerized systems.) They're essential…

Playing the devil’s advocate: what’s preventing them from claiming the tractor itself as IP as well, and licensing it as such? Eg you’re not allowed to change your own tires. Would such a thing be legally possible, and if not, why does this differ from the firmware?

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#79

Post by karmelapple »

celticmusic wrote: post #64
wiremine wrote: post #58

Disclaimer: I'm a VP for an IoT software company. I also grew up in farming communities. I'm all for the right to repair, but I'm concerned we're creating a bit of false hope for famers. As more and more software gets injected into the equipment, "fixing" things requires touching both the physical devices and the software. Obviously, the right to repair for non-software related problems is easy to understand. I'm won…

Many farmers already run their own version of the software needed for the equipment, complete with its own diagnostic setup. They do this specifically because they cannot get that diagnostic information with the official software (because they don't want farmers working on it themselves). The question you have to ask yourself is this: If they're already savvy enough to do that, imagine how much better things will be…

Imagine the opportunity for a local person to create a business helping farmers troubleshoot and improve their tractor software.

Someone interested in software development might feel like they must move away from their rural hometown to have a career in engineering. Supporting farming equipment might be a way to reduce that - not to mention all the remote work opportunities now available.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#80

Post by taftster »

kaffeemitsahne wrote: post #65
dbcurtis wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the early days, farm tractors were pretty simple, and many farmers did a lot of their own work. As machines got bigger, most used local repair shops that could always order from parts depots. But as electronics has invaded tractors (for many good reasons) it has gotten to the point where you really need the diagnostic equipment. So this is a lot like what auto repair was in the early days of the diagnostic plug-in…

I still don't get from your description what the point or motive would be. Who is locking in whom, for what purpose?

Deere is controlling the marketplace for "repairs." If a farmer is required to use service centers exclusively provided and controlled by Deere, then they are inhibited from using the free market. The right to repair is essential for farmers to be able to choose the best repair options for their situation (self-made repairs, local non-affiliated repair shop, Deere certified).

Some people take their cars to the dealer for all services. They do this because they value the expertise and depth that the dealers can [sometimes] provide. Other people take their cars to the local quick lube or brake repair shop.

To each his own for car repairs. And so too it should be for any equipment repairs.

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