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Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

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Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#21

Post by THJr »

korabas wrote: post #8

Honest question: what would be the rationale to prevent farmers from repairing their machinery themselves instead of through the manufacturer (in this case, Deere)? To my mind, from the point of view of the "user" (i.e. the farmer), that can be seen as somewhat monopolistic. I tried to find similarities between this situation and that of Apple not letting users tamper with their hardware, but it could be argued that…

There's a number of reasons, but as I understand the main issue is that John Deere is treating their tractor's firmware like the music industry was treating MP3's. They say farmers may own the tractor itself, and the hardware, but they're only licensing the use of the firmware and don't have the right to modify it. (Which can be necessary when repairing a tractor that has many computerized systems.)

They're essentially creating DRM for tractor software that's so restrictive that installing new parts requires access to secret codes in the firmware in order to turn them on, then accusing farmers of breaking the law if they try to alter or figure out these secret codes in order to keep their tractor working without going to a dealer. (According to my basic understanding, correct me if I'm wrong.)

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#22

Post by unnouinceput »

yobananaboy wrote: post #9

I'm shocked someone actually voted no. What would their justification for that vote be? Legit curious if they had a proper argument, didn't understand the issue, or if it was some type of corporate influence.

I bet was the latter.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#23

Post by kevindong »

> 3. Include ALL OEM equipment, regardless of age, model, or years in use at the time of the effective date.

To me, that clause seems to be overly broad since I'm interpreting it to mean that the manufacturers have to indefinitely support all of their products.

If it's limited to all equipment that the OEM is willing to sell to at least one entity, then I'd say it's perfectly reasonable.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#24

Post by kgwxd »

deogeo wrote: post #16
korabas wrote: post #8

Honest question: what would be the rationale to prevent farmers from repairing their machinery themselves instead of through the manufacturer (in this case, Deere)? To my mind, from the point of view of the "user" (i.e. the farmer), that can be seen as somewhat monopolistic. I tried to find similarities between this situation and that of Apple not letting users tamper with their hardware, but it could be argued that…

> but it could be argued that the latter makes a bit more sense given that most of their customers, statistically speaking, are not necessarily tech enthusiasts And I'm not a car enthusiast, yet I can take my car to any mechanic I choose - I don't need the manufacturer's permission.

This is the perfect way to frame it. Just about anyone, no matter their level of interest in the case, would response to that with "well, duh".

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#25

Post by MisterOctober »

spazmoose wrote: post #6

I've been paying attention to this for several years. I have an affinity for John Deere, having grown up on a farm that had almost nothing but JD tractors, but their heavy-handed approach to repair work in recent years is unacceptable. Farmers don't have the funds available to constantly be taking equipment (that sometimes costs upwards of $200,000) to a dealership when it breaks down (and it will break down).

Yep! In fact, the orchardist Michael Phillips in "The Apple Grower" specifically recommends older, purely-mechanical tractors for small / family operations, largely for repair reasons

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#26

Post by AgloeDreams »

deogeo wrote: post #16
korabas wrote: post #8

Honest question: what would be the rationale to prevent farmers from repairing their machinery themselves instead of through the manufacturer (in this case, Deere)? To my mind, from the point of view of the "user" (i.e. the farmer), that can be seen as somewhat monopolistic. I tried to find similarities between this situation and that of Apple not letting users tamper with their hardware, but it could be argued that…

> but it could be argued that the latter makes a bit more sense given that most of their customers, statistically speaking, are not necessarily tech enthusiasts And I'm not a car enthusiast, yet I can take my car to any mechanic I choose - I don't need the manufacturer's permission.

This actually is also a market that suffers from this, notably companies like Tesla.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#27

Post by Eric_WVGG »

taurath wrote: post #10
korabas wrote: post #8

Honest question: what would be the rationale to prevent farmers from repairing their machinery themselves instead of through the manufacturer (in this case, Deere)? To my mind, from the point of view of the "user" (i.e. the farmer), that can be seen as somewhat monopolistic. I tried to find similarities between this situation and that of Apple not letting users tamper with their hardware, but it could be argued that…

Money. You’re not buying a tractor, you’re buying a “platform”.

Well, he said “rational,” as in, how does Deere rationalize it. As far as I can tell, they’re just parroting the usual DMCA talking points…

> John Deere declined to be interviewed but sent a lengthy statement outlining its concerns. The company doesn’t want people altering its copyright-protected code because, said director of public relations Ken Golden, “changes could lead to the unsafe operation of products, disruption of machine capabilities and performance, changes to emissions controls, voiding of warranties and lack of transparency to the changes when the equipment is sold to another user”.

But yeah, money.

One thing that gets lost in this particular controversy, IMO, is that John Deere is effectively a monopoly in this space. If farmers were able to choose between tractors that were built like Dell laptops vs ones built like iPads…

So this is a problem of digital rights, but one could argue that it’s also a problem of deregulation and lack of competition.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#28

Post by _ea1k »

yobananaboy wrote: post #9

I'm shocked someone actually voted no. What would their justification for that vote be? Legit curious if they had a proper argument, didn't understand the issue, or if it was some type of corporate influence.

In some cases, it may be a legitimate desire to let the market sort it out. It isn't as if there are laws barring manufacturers from allowing end-users.

Arguably, the "right" answer would be for customers to go to vendors that provide support for end users repairing their own products.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#29

Post by thaumasiotes »

eastof wrote: post #20
ISL wrote: post #14

Right to repair is increasingly hitting people outside of agrarian/industrial contexts. This month, Google shipped the last update for my Pixel phone. The hardware is functional and in great shape, but I don't think there are any truly viable ways for me to keep it secure. I have a tablet that long-ago met the same fate. This is in the same world where I can 'apt-get update' my seven-year old desktop and work with ap…

You can get really good support from Lineage OS for years to come. Been running it on all my android devices for years. The flagship models like Pixel usually have the best ongoing support.

> The flagship models like Pixel usually have the best ongoing support.

When was the last time you checked on this? As far as I can see, LineageOS support is pretty much restricted to phones that have had it for years. There is no hope if you have a recent phone. There's also no hope if you have an old phone, unless it's already supported.

For example, the most recent Pixel with support is... the Pixel. The original.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#30

Post by pedrocr »

eastof wrote: post #20
ISL wrote: post #14

Right to repair is increasingly hitting people outside of agrarian/industrial contexts. This month, Google shipped the last update for my Pixel phone. The hardware is functional and in great shape, but I don't think there are any truly viable ways for me to keep it secure. I have a tablet that long-ago met the same fate. This is in the same world where I can 'apt-get update' my seven-year old desktop and work with ap…

You can get really good support from Lineage OS for years to come. Been running it on all my android devices for years. The flagship models like Pixel usually have the best ongoing support.

You really can't. Devices get dropped often and kernels are left at old versions with security bugs unpatched. There's nothing in Android that's like a proper Linux distribution that keeps working for decades on the same hardware with full kernel updates.
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