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In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

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Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#21

Post by simonh »

Spooky23 wrote: post #12
mytailorisrich wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, the article is not quite correct that the cheese was lost. We know that Pepys buried this cheese, along with other items, because he wrote about it in his diary [1]. It was not mentioned again (or was it?). So based on evidence we don't know what happened to the cheese, but Pepys most likely dug it up along with the other items he had buried (he had also buried wine and office papers). [1] https://www.pepysdi…

We hope. 400 year old cheese would not exactly be a treasure!

Look up bog butter. Yum!

Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#22

Post by tialaramex »

Accujack wrote: post #16
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #7

Does anyone know what the other side of the issue is? The fact that this article paints a totally rosy picture, does not mention downsides to the system, only quotes government side sources (they couldn't even find a metal dectectorist to say "yeah it's not perfect but it's good enough"?) is setting off red flags for me.

My questions would be what oversight is there of the coroners' decisions and what ensures their qualifications? A scientific discovery might have no gold or silver but be much more valuable at sale than shiny metals. A coroner who decides entirely based on his/her knowledge of the value of the find risks making incorrect decisions based on a lack of specialist knowledge.

A coroner is basically a type of judge. They have a court, they can summon a jury (but obviously you don't need a jury to make treasure decisions, that's for stuff like an inquest after a person dies in police custody to avoid even the appearance of a cover up by the state) they can force witnesses to turn up and give evidence to them.

So their qualifications are primarily legal like other judges (in the UK you can't get a job as judge by having the Head of State just give it to you, our judiciary actually is politically independent rather than just having a pretence)

Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#23

Post by mytailorisrich »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #11
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #7

Does anyone know what the other side of the issue is? The fact that this article paints a totally rosy picture, does not mention downsides to the system, only quotes government side sources (they couldn't even find a metal dectectorist to say "yeah it's not perfect but it's good enough"?) is setting off red flags for me.

Well when the new rules came in, there was a massive increase in reported finds - around tenfold. That seems to indicate the detectorists quite like it, landowners seem to approve of their share too. There was a news story that beggared belief quite recently of a pair of detectorists who found a major Viking hoard, sold bits piecemeal trying to to go the illicit sale route, but got caught and now face years in prison…

If an 'antique' gold coin is more valuable than its weight in gold there may be practical benefits in complying with the law as it may be difficult (and less profitable) to sell these coins without the correct paperwork. Indeed, I suppose that any serious dealer will want to check the status of these coins, and any dodgy dealer will buy at a discount.

Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#24

Post by simonh »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #18
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well when the new rules came in, there was a massive increase in reported finds - around tenfold. That seems to indicate the detectorists quite like it, landowners seem to approve of their share too. There was a news story that beggared belief quite recently of a pair of detectorists who found a major Viking hoard, sold bits piecemeal trying to to go the illicit sale route, but got caught and now face years in prison…

>Well when the new rules came in, there was a massive increase in reported finds - around tenfold. That seems to indicate the detectorists quite like it, landowners seem to approve of their share too. Compliance doesn't mean they like it, just that the risk reward of telling the state to shove it isn't worth telling the state to shove it (after all, this is just a hobby for most people). What I'd like to hear is some…

From a practical point of view, the increase in reported finds is a pretty good indicator of success. After all we're balancing the interests of detectorists, land owners and the public. Success isn't necessarily about completely satisfying any of them.

Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#25

Post by frobozz »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #17
frobozz wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't say that the cheese was lost. It says that it was buried in a time of crisis. It is a comment on the practice of "burying goods with the intention of recovery", which is part of the definition of treasure.

The article explicitly claims that the cheese is still lost: > It is still at large, buried somewhere under modern London.

Sorry, I evidently skipped that paragraph. I only saw the bit where the cheese burial was mentioned.

Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#26

Post by poulsbohemian »

Spooky23 wrote: post #12
mytailorisrich wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, the article is not quite correct that the cheese was lost. We know that Pepys buried this cheese, along with other items, because he wrote about it in his diary [1]. It was not mentioned again (or was it?). So based on evidence we don't know what happened to the cheese, but Pepys most likely dug it up along with the other items he had buried (he had also buried wine and office papers). [1] https://www.pepysdi…

We hope. 400 year old cheese would not exactly be a treasure!

"It depends."

We opened a 7 year old cheese for Thanksgiving that was perfect as it is a cheese deliberately packaged to age and allow tyrosine development (which people seem to like for its bite). I've had a 30+ year version of the same cheese which was very edible and enjoyable, though you had to like a cheese with some bite. Pairs nicely with a white wine.

Would 400 year old or older cheese be good? Main thing I'd worry about is brucellosis or other contaminants.

Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#27

Post by matthewheath »

Accujack wrote: post #16
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #7

Does anyone know what the other side of the issue is? The fact that this article paints a totally rosy picture, does not mention downsides to the system, only quotes government side sources (they couldn't even find a metal dectectorist to say "yeah it's not perfect but it's good enough"?) is setting off red flags for me.

My questions would be what oversight is there of the coroners' decisions and what ensures their qualifications? A scientific discovery might have no gold or silver but be much more valuable at sale than shiny metals. A coroner who decides entirely based on his/her knowledge of the value of the find risks making incorrect decisions based on a lack of specialist knowledge.

Coroners must be legally qualified solicitors or barristers, or a Fellow of the Charted Institute of Legal Executives, and must have 5 years worth of experience [1].

They are appointed by local authorities with the consent of the Chief Coroner and the Lord Chancellor.

For oversight, you must submit a judicial review to the High Court. A senior judge there will decide the lawfulness of the coroner's actions [2]. You used to be able to appeal to the Chief Coroner instead of seeking judicial review, but this mechanism was removed by the Public Bodies Act 2011 [3].

---

[1] http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/13/section/2

[2] https://www.judiciary.uk/related-offices-and-bodies/office-c...

[3] http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2009/25/section/40

Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#28

Post by baud147258 »

poulsbohemian wrote: post #26
Spooky23 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We hope. 400 year old cheese would not exactly be a treasure!

"It depends." We opened a 7 year old cheese for Thanksgiving that was perfect as it is a cheese deliberately packaged to age and allow tyrosine development (which people seem to like for its bite). I've had a 30+ year version of the same cheese which was very edible and enjoyable, though you had to like a cheese with some bite. Pairs nicely with a white wine. Would 400 year old or older cheese be good? Main thing I'd…

what kind of cheese was it? And how is it kept for all this years?

Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#29

Post by poulsbohemian »

baud147258 wrote: post #28
poulsbohemian wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It depends." We opened a 7 year old cheese for Thanksgiving that was perfect as it is a cheese deliberately packaged to age and allow tyrosine development (which people seem to like for its bite). I've had a 30+ year version of the same cheese which was very edible and enjoyable, though you had to like a cheese with some bite. Pairs nicely with a white wine. Would 400 year old or older cheese be good? Main thing I'd…

what kind of cheese was it? And how is it kept for all this years?

Cougar Gold, from the Washington state university creamery.

Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#30

Post by [deleted] »

poulsbohemian wrote: post #26
Spooky23 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We hope. 400 year old cheese would not exactly be a treasure!

"It depends." We opened a 7 year old cheese for Thanksgiving that was perfect as it is a cheese deliberately packaged to age and allow tyrosine development (which people seem to like for its bite). I've had a 30+ year version of the same cheese which was very edible and enjoyable, though you had to like a cheese with some bite. Pairs nicely with a white wine. Would 400 year old or older cheese be good? Main thing I'd…

[deleted]
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