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In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

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Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#11

Post by NeedMoreTea »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #7

Does anyone know what the other side of the issue is? The fact that this article paints a totally rosy picture, does not mention downsides to the system, only quotes government side sources (they couldn't even find a metal dectectorist to say "yeah it's not perfect but it's good enough"?) is setting off red flags for me.

Well when the new rules came in, there was a massive increase in reported finds - around tenfold. That seems to indicate the detectorists quite like it, landowners seem to approve of their share too. There was a news story that beggared belief quite recently of a pair of detectorists who found a major Viking hoard, sold bits piecemeal trying to to go the illicit sale route, but got caught and now face years in prison and no bounty.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/nov/21/detectorists...

The biggest problem, that I'm aware of, is in giving a representative commercial value to found treasure trove, many museums struggle to afford. There have been many calls for museums and trusts to get more formal government assistance to pick up major finds, though they can get lottery assistance I think. Here's a piece from nearly 20 years ago, when I think the new rules were still quite recent:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/aug/15/education.arts

Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#12

Post by Spooky23 »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #5
kybernetikos wrote: post #2

The fire never reached Pepys house. I thought the cheese was recovered without problem.

Indeed, the article is not quite correct that the cheese was lost. We know that Pepys buried this cheese, along with other items, because he wrote about it in his diary [1]. It was not mentioned again (or was it?). So based on evidence we don't know what happened to the cheese, but Pepys most likely dug it up along with the other items he had buried (he had also buried wine and office papers). [1] https://www.pepysdi…

We hope. 400 year old cheese would not exactly be a treasure!

Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#13

Post by brianwawok »

chrisseaton wrote: post #6

They say they think it's bizarre, but don't compare to how it's done anywhere else! If it's so bizarre how are other countries like the United States doing it? The American Civil War wasn't very long ago, but I think if there are no known owners then buried gold like the Confederate Gold would be considered treasure in England even though it isn't old, so they must have similar issues.

If you find stuff in your land, I assume it’s yours. But we don’t have 300 year old stockpiles of gold, not what native Americans did.

Finding stuff on public land is I assume more complicated. Maybe the police sort it?

Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#14

Post by larrik »

reagent_finder wrote: post #4

That's fascinating! I'd love to read more about these, even if they're mostly routine. 1200 a year seems like quite a bit! You could call the show "Coroner's corner"

Given how interesting American Pickers or Antique Roadshow are, I think you're right that this could be a good show.

Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#15

Post by frobozz »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #5
kybernetikos wrote: post #2

The fire never reached Pepys house. I thought the cheese was recovered without problem.

Indeed, the article is not quite correct that the cheese was lost. We know that Pepys buried this cheese, along with other items, because he wrote about it in his diary [1]. It was not mentioned again (or was it?). So based on evidence we don't know what happened to the cheese, but Pepys most likely dug it up along with the other items he had buried (he had also buried wine and office papers). [1] https://www.pepysdi…

It doesn't say that the cheese was lost.

It says that it was buried in a time of crisis.

It is a comment on the practice of "burying goods with the intention of recovery", which is part of the definition of treasure.

Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#16

Post by Accujack »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #7

Does anyone know what the other side of the issue is? The fact that this article paints a totally rosy picture, does not mention downsides to the system, only quotes government side sources (they couldn't even find a metal dectectorist to say "yeah it's not perfect but it's good enough"?) is setting off red flags for me.

My questions would be what oversight is there of the coroners' decisions and what ensures their qualifications?

A scientific discovery might have no gold or silver but be much more valuable at sale than shiny metals. A coroner who decides entirely based on his/her knowledge of the value of the find risks making incorrect decisions based on a lack of specialist knowledge.

Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#17

Post by mytailorisrich »

frobozz wrote: post #15
mytailorisrich wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, the article is not quite correct that the cheese was lost. We know that Pepys buried this cheese, along with other items, because he wrote about it in his diary [1]. It was not mentioned again (or was it?). So based on evidence we don't know what happened to the cheese, but Pepys most likely dug it up along with the other items he had buried (he had also buried wine and office papers). [1] https://www.pepysdi…

It doesn't say that the cheese was lost. It says that it was buried in a time of crisis. It is a comment on the practice of "burying goods with the intention of recovery", which is part of the definition of treasure.

The article explicitly claims that the cheese is still lost:

> It is still at large, buried somewhere under modern London.

Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#18

Post by dsfyu404ed »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #11
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #7

Does anyone know what the other side of the issue is? The fact that this article paints a totally rosy picture, does not mention downsides to the system, only quotes government side sources (they couldn't even find a metal dectectorist to say "yeah it's not perfect but it's good enough"?) is setting off red flags for me.

Well when the new rules came in, there was a massive increase in reported finds - around tenfold. That seems to indicate the detectorists quite like it, landowners seem to approve of their share too. There was a news story that beggared belief quite recently of a pair of detectorists who found a major Viking hoard, sold bits piecemeal trying to to go the illicit sale route, but got caught and now face years in prison…

>Well when the new rules came in, there was a massive increase in reported finds - around tenfold. That seems to indicate the detectorists quite like it, landowners seem to approve of their share too.

Compliance doesn't mean they like it, just that the risk reward of telling the state to shove it isn't worth telling the state to shove it (after all, this is just a hobby for most people).

What I'd like to hear is someone who was metal detecting back before the law change describing how things changed and the pros cons. I googled around but couldn't find anything (which is unsurprising considering how niche this is and the timeline involved).

Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#19

Post by C1sc0cat »

Accujack wrote: post #16
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #7

Does anyone know what the other side of the issue is? The fact that this article paints a totally rosy picture, does not mention downsides to the system, only quotes government side sources (they couldn't even find a metal dectectorist to say "yeah it's not perfect but it's good enough"?) is setting off red flags for me.

My questions would be what oversight is there of the coroners' decisions and what ensures their qualifications? A scientific discovery might have no gold or silver but be much more valuable at sale than shiny metals. A coroner who decides entirely based on his/her knowledge of the value of the find risks making incorrect decisions based on a lack of specialist knowledge.

The normal court process I would suspect it could end up in the Lords / Supreme court

Re: In England, Coroners Decide What Is Treasure and What Is Not

#20

Post by Filligree »

Spooky23 wrote: post #12
mytailorisrich wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, the article is not quite correct that the cheese was lost. We know that Pepys buried this cheese, along with other items, because he wrote about it in his diary [1]. It was not mentioned again (or was it?). So based on evidence we don't know what happened to the cheese, but Pepys most likely dug it up along with the other items he had buried (he had also buried wine and office papers). [1] https://www.pepysdi…

We hope. 400 year old cheese would not exactly be a treasure!

400? Try 3200, and this one was actually dug back up. :D

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-45233347

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