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What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

theatlantic.com

191–200 of 244 posts

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#191
post #154
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your logical error is assuming that it’s so obvious what “vot[ing] against [one’s] own interests” means. Maybe a stable free market government with a strong cultural and religious framework is in everyone’s interest, and the “massive industry” exists to convince people of that fact?

As a wise man once said, good ideas do not need a lot of lies told about them to be convincing. Also, who is "everyone"? Whose culture is "cultural"? Which religion is the "religious framework"? The problem with the 1950s white patriachal evangelical Christian version of America is the huge bunch of people it didn't work for, who got counted out of "everyone".

The other way to frame it is that people need convincing to forgo what feels good in the short term to pursue what works best in the long term.

As to whose culture and whose religion: it’s not clear to me the specifics matter so much as the existence of strong, broadly-shared social norms. My Bangladeshi immigrant family doesn’t share a culture or religion with Pat Buchanan, but there was frankly not a lot of daylight between their views on how people should live in society.

And you’re right in one respect: a society that emphasizes social norms will leave some people out. The social norms can be evolved, of course. Bangladesh, for example, is making progress in evolving the social norms surrounding participation of women in the economy. (In terms of labor force participation rate, Bangladesh today is where the USA was in 1950. On the other hand, we’ve had not one but two women as heads of state.) But a society that emphasizes individual self determination will be more inclusive and more responsive to social change. But these are trade offs in the structure of a society and people can reasonably disagree about what serves the best interests of the vast majority of the people.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#192

I'm all for the positivity but really?? > Access to an elite organization In what way is Slack elite? These writers need to tone done their hyperbole.

In what way is Slack not elite? Slack is within the top 10% of companies in the Bay Area by pretty much any metric you choose to rank companies by. By almost any measure, that's elite. Is Berkeley not an elite school, because it's less prestigious than Stanford?

Since we're answering questions with questions...

> Slack is within the top 10% of companies in the Bay Area by pretty much any metric you choose to rank companies by

What are you basing that on?

I'd say a bloated chat app in no way portrays elite. What has come out of Slack that screams elite?

There's more to elite than just 'oh look it shiny'

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was like the archetype of a partisan argument. You two managed to go through why the sides don't like each other's worldview or the way it's expressed, and then stopped the second it came to discussing any real world issues. And I mean both of you as well, you could've given examples and data about why your system might be in anyone's interest but you didn't and it would've been the perfect time for him to reply…

> You two Who two? Every next comment was written by a different person.

I was mistaken.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#194
I spent 19 years of my life incarcerated. My life of crime started when my family moved to East Los Angeles and I decided to become a gang member at the age of 15. My last stint in prison was fourteen years straight; having been sentenced to 21 years but was granted parole on my first parole hearing. During my prison time, I enrolled in educational activities and got my GED, an Associate of Arts degree with honors, and later a degree in Computer Information Systems. Needless to say, that it took me time to adjust to a completely different type of life on the outside than the one I had been accustomed to. More than once I had the experience of being rejected, and of job offers being withdrawn, because of my criminal history. For the last 20 years, I have been working as a software developer and make a good living thanks to the career I chose while in prison. I hope more companies have the courage to take a chance on others such as myself that have paid their debt to society and are trying to live a normal life. Kudos to Slack and all the companies that believe in giving people a second chance.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#195
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume they're not earning trust? The article says: All three apprentices were placed on the test-automation team, which writes tests to ensure the quality of other engineers’ code, precisely because it’s insulated from customer data. The people doing the hiring are aware of the issue, as anyone in their position would be. It is obvious. Would you mind re-reading the site guidelines and noting this one? "…

I am so sorry for not accepting and praising this Atlantic-laundered Slack press release. If my reading comprehension were on-point, I would have clearly understood that this is against site guidelines. Please delete my account, posts, and comments so that they no longer taint this fine establishment.

This kind of snark is unnecessary. You can get your point across without the abrasive language.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#196
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a wise man once said, good ideas do not need a lot of lies told about them to be convincing. Also, who is "everyone"? Whose culture is "cultural"? Which religion is the "religious framework"? The problem with the 1950s white patriachal evangelical Christian version of America is the huge bunch of people it didn't work for, who got counted out of "everyone".

The other way to frame it is that people need convincing to forgo what feels good in the short term to pursue what works best in the long term. As to whose culture and whose religion: it’s not clear to me the specifics matter so much as the existence of strong, broadly-shared social norms. My Bangladeshi immigrant family doesn’t share a culture or religion with Pat Buchanan, but there was frankly not a lot of dayligh…

As to whose culture and whose religion: it’s not clear to me the specifics matter so much as the existence of strong, broadly-shared social norms.

It definitely is nice when it is the case, but I don't think it's necessary for America's future to be successful. Certainly, for the first 150 years of its existence, the United States had very widely varying cultures and ways of life throughout. The Puritans in the north lived differently than the Scotch-Irish, who lived differently than Germans in the midwest, who lived differently than the pioneers in the west.

The difference between now and then though was that back then all those people were free to live as they felt like, and if they didn't like it, they could pick up and leave to form new communities, like for example the Mormons did when faced with hostility of people from their origins. Now, however, the mass media and powerful federal government is dictating the one and proper set of moral and social norms, and the correct way to live. People aren't free anymore to do what they want if the feds don't like it, even if their state doesn't have an issue with. Even the states expanded their reach into determining how people should live. This wouldn't have been a problem if, like you suggest, the enforced way of life was broadly shared, but it clearly isn't.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#197
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> convince people to either not vote - or to vote against their personal best interests. I’ve seen this on HN several times, and it always cracks me up. The condescension isn't dripping. It’s running in torrents. You think the reason they won’t vote the way you want is because they don’t know what’s good for themselves. You might want to consider an alternate: they don’t want someone like you deciding what’s good for…

The American political left would gain immensely and lose exactly nothing by being less condescending. The first line of argument they should abandon is telling people they are voting against their own interests. It’s remarkably insulting, and arrogantly presupposes you know know better what another person’s interests are.

I've always thought that the line about people voting against their own interests was just addressing an irrelevant point. Billionaires who support Sanders and Warren are voting against their own interest because they'd get taxed higher, does anyone think that's bad? There's nothing wrong with voting on principle, rather than for what directly benefits you personally.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#198
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't take HN threads on generic ideological tangents. Those blow up into generic ideological flamewars, which are always the same and always less interesting than the specific discussion that they destroy by burning as kindling. With your comment, you provoked a flamewar that degenerated straight to bon mots like " Government is to govern. ", " I’ve seen this on HN several times, and it always cracks me up. T…

With respect, it was directly related to a quote in the article. It wasn't my intent to provoke a flame war; I was addressing what I felt was faulty reasoning used by someone in the article. I understand where you're coming from, but I'm honestly not sure how much of the article -- or articles in general -- I could bring up without it potentially counting as an 'ideological tangent', as that seems like an awfully bro…

I totally accept that it wasn't your intent. But effects matter more than intent in cases like this, and these effects were predictable.

Your comment wasn't first-order flamebait, but it was a classic generic ideological tangent. Those two things are related, since generic ideological tangents mostly lead to flamewars. That's why they're included in that guideline.

In this case you picked a particularly weak point from the article, on a generic ideological issue, that was entirely tangential to the main topic (which is where all the specific information that could support non-generic discussion was), and posted a comment dismissing it, leading with a swipe ("I mean, yeah?"). That pretty much guarantees what we ended up with.

There's another guideline that's relevant here: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize." There are two ways in which your comment arguably broke that rule. First, picking a weak and tangential point from the article to criticize is more marginal nitpicking than solid discussion. The "strongest plausible" rule applies at the article level as well.

But also: if I read the entire quote that you were objecting to, it's clear that that person's main point was that the private sector can't solve all the problems that come up for reintegrating former prisoners. In other words, the quote's point is exactly the same as yours. If you had adopted the strongest plausible interpretation, the "blaming Slack and co" provocation would have dropped out and there would have been nothing to complain about.

I hope it doesn't feel like I'm picking on you personally. These issues are common, which is why I post about them at length. The hope is to get the community to understand the patterns, so we can have more curious conversation and less bilious repetition.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#199

How would, " What happens after prisoners become accountants / lawyers / bankers... " sound? To me, it says that trust in our profession is interchangeable with that of trained felons. I'd rather not have technically proficient felons near passwords, credit card #s, and other personal information. Edit: I hate to sound like a Calvinist here, but you have to ask yourself how much a change in behavior is due to "rehabi…

Yes, recidivism rates are very high indeed. And I am proof of it, having done time in two countries (US and Mexico) and two states (Arizona and California) for a total of 19 years of my life. But just as I am a statistical number of those that return to prison, I am a statistical number for those that get out and stay out. I have been working as a software developer for the last 20 years and make a comfortable living from the career I chose. But my story would have been very different if I had never been given a chance to work and prove my worth. Thankfully, someone was willing to take a chance by hiring me. I’ve been free for the last 22 years, married for the last 20, father of a beautiful daughter, and grandfather to an adorable girl.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Straight out of college, not straight out of prison for being an accessory to somebody getting loaded with buckshot.

That sounds nice and dramatic, but I don't see how a terrible choice someone made 10 years ago says anything about how trustworthy they are with regard to financial or personal information. It seems you're leaving out the assumption: once a criminal, always a criminal.

Well, this graph does shed some light on that...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recidivism#/media/File:Recidiv...

For white collar crime, which seems most relevant to the topic at hand, the recidivism rate is slightly less at about 48%.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=1451...

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