What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code? • Hacker News Board

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#81

Post by jstewartmobile » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 3:08 PM UTC

How would, "What happens after prisoners become accountants / lawyers / bankers..." sound? To me, it says that trust in our profession is interchangeable with that of trained felons.

I'd rather not have technically proficient felons near passwords, credit card #s, and other personal information.

Edit:

I hate to sound like a Calvinist here, but you have to ask yourself how much a change in behavior is due to "rehabilitation", and how much of it is purely situational.

From what I've seen, they're model employees, until the setback--be it divorce, drugs, financial hardship, stress, etc. Then there is the backslide.

And you don't have to take my word for it. Recidivism rates are very very high.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#82

Post by colejohnson66 » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 3:09 PM UTC

qmmmur wrote: post #35

lizardking wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American political left would gain immensely and lose exactly nothing by being less condescending. The first line of argument they should abandon is telling people they are voting against their own interests. It’s remarkably insulting, and arrogantly presupposes you know know better what another person’s interests are.

You don't have to guess what a lot of people's interests are. They will tell you. In my constituency people were annoyed with our sitting member who is Labor because the train prises increased. They want lower train fares so they voted conservative. So yes, it is actually easy in some cases to say someone voted against their interest.

No. They didn’t vote against their interest. They voted for someone who supposedly would fulfill their interests. Voting against your interests implies you know your interests are wrong.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#83

Post by sokoloff » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 3:14 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #67

abnry wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing the point. If I say, "I support X" and you say, "I support not X," that's just a disagreement. If I say, "I support" and you say, "I support not X, and if you weren't so blind you'd think that too," that's being condescending because you are assuming that someone (a) has fundamentally the same values than you but is (b) too stupid to see it. The reality is that people can value something different tha…

>people can value something different than you (less government intervention, less restrictions on speech, lower taxes) for fundamental reasons different than yours // You're right, but in the election run-up people living on minimum wage, who complained we needed a change because of the rich getting too rich, also were convinced that Labour's tax increases were a devastating blow to them personally; tax increases th…

Even with perfect understanding, there are many people who believe along the lines of "the government which governs least governs best."

Specifically, if you promised that every year you'd take 5% of the money of everyone richer than me, that I'd get a healthy slice of it, the rest would be spent on programs I approve of, and that there is no possible future in which that new tax would apply to me, I'd still vote against it. I don't think it's because I'm too stupid or ill-informed to understand that it would be "good for me".

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#84

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 3:16 PM UTC

livueta wrote: post #6

kkwak wrote: post #3

Programming generally provides people with a lot of power. Either in access to data or obviously code. In that, there is a lot of trust requested and given. I know lots of enterprises add a lot of "scans" and "checks" and limit things to much complaints to remove the "we trust you" from the equation, but still you can't scan for everything. The open question is how much trust do you want to give? Of course, 2nd, 3rd,…

I feel like if any one person can seriously subvert something, you've already lost. Maybe that's just my perspective from working at international enormous tech corp X, but we've already basically got that problem in the form of employees hailing from repressive states (yeah, Australia, that's you now too) where everything needs cross-signing anyway. All in all, I'd probably be more concerned about foreign nationals…

I agree. Proper controls are half the battle. Naturally, those tend to be ignored when things get difficult..

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#85

Post by sokoloff » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 3:18 PM UTC

ralusek wrote: post #78

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government is to govern. Government in most countries is driven by democratic mandates. Democratic mandates are set by influencers. The US’ key influencers are largely regressive and dishonest - and convince people to either not vote - or to vote against their personal best interests[1]. The US government does not currently have a democratic mandate to operate as the social welfare state. Consequently hundreds of tho…

When people vote in their personal best interests, that is a signal for a dying society. Imagine if you had a vote at halftime of a sports game and let people vote on what the rules should be. Ideally, they would vote out things like corrupt refs, and make adjustments to rules that have proven to greatly advantage people in a game-breaking way. But if they start voting in such a manner that they are reallocating poin…

I regret that I have but one upvote to give for this.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#86

Post by mabbo » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 3:18 PM UTC

kkwak wrote: post #3

Programming generally provides people with a lot of power. Either in access to data or obviously code. In that, there is a lot of trust requested and given. I know lots of enterprises add a lot of "scans" and "checks" and limit things to much complaints to remove the "we trust you" from the equation, but still you can't scan for everything. The open question is how much trust do you want to give? Of course, 2nd, 3rd,…

But this is precisely why Tech is the perfect place for people like this: we already don't trust anyone!

Consider Netflix's ChaosMonkey (or whatever their new simian name they have now). It messes with your IT infrastructure automatically to ensure that your software/system can handle these regular problems. Developers have to consider that hey, these things are going to happen all the time (rather than relying on luck that it doesn't happen) and they build super resilient systems. You ever even heard of a Netflix outage?

Now ask yourself this: How would you build your security infrastructure/system given the knowledge that literal convicted criminals would have access to some parts of the system? You'd become very inventive, creative, and build the world's best system. AAA (authentication, authorization, accounting) security? You'd find some new A's to add just to be sure.

If your system can't handle convicted criminals access it, how will it handle the ones who didn't get caught but now work for you?

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#87

Post by formercoder » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 3:19 PM UTC

jtbayly wrote: post #13

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government is to govern. Government in most countries is driven by democratic mandates. Democratic mandates are set by influencers. The US’ key influencers are largely regressive and dishonest - and convince people to either not vote - or to vote against their personal best interests[1]. The US government does not currently have a democratic mandate to operate as the social welfare state. Consequently hundreds of tho…

> convince people to either not vote - or to vote against their personal best interests. I’ve seen this on HN several times, and it always cracks me up. The condescension isn't dripping. It’s running in torrents. You think the reason they won’t vote the way you want is because they don’t know what’s good for themselves. You might want to consider an alternate: they don’t want someone like you deciding what’s good for…

Or they voted one way for a long time, and things got worse, so now they vote a different way.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#88

Post by harimau777 » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 3:19 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #63

harimau777 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throughout the vast majority of human history the role of government has not been just to preserve and protect rights, but also to promote the public good. This is true both of national government and more informal governments such as those in churches and clubs. I think that humanity is a species that operates and survives as a society; therefore, I think its likely that there is a place for society promoting the co…

>>>such as those in churches and clubs. Churches and Clubs are generally voluntary organizations on chooses to join, and can leave. Thus can not be classified as a government I have no choice but to interact with the government and should I choose not to said government will put me in a cage and/or use violence against me to compel my activity, I am sure you next comment will be "well you vote so you consented..." wh…

I agree that if someone wants to live outside of society then they should be allowed to do so.

However, for those who are part of society, I feel that the purpose of society is to provide for the needs of its members.

I think that your analysis of history may be too simplistic. Certainly governments have caused suffering, tyranny, and oppression, but so has profit motive. By the same token, both profit motive and government has done a lot of good for people.

My overall objection is that you seem to be taking a very black and white approach. I agree that we shouldn't adopt a communist approach that rejects profit motive or an extreme collectivist approach that rejects individual rights. However, that doesn't mean that there is no role for society to provide for people's needs.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#89

Post by formercoder » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 3:21 PM UTC

ralusek wrote: post #78

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government is to govern. Government in most countries is driven by democratic mandates. Democratic mandates are set by influencers. The US’ key influencers are largely regressive and dishonest - and convince people to either not vote - or to vote against their personal best interests[1]. The US government does not currently have a democratic mandate to operate as the social welfare state. Consequently hundreds of tho…

When people vote in their personal best interests, that is a signal for a dying society. Imagine if you had a vote at halftime of a sports game and let people vote on what the rules should be. Ideally, they would vote out things like corrupt refs, and make adjustments to rules that have proven to greatly advantage people in a game-breaking way. But if they start voting in such a manner that they are reallocating poin…

Ben Franklin said the best argument against democracy is five minutes with the average voter.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#90

Post by rayiner » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 3:23 PM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #48

jtbayly wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> convince people to either not vote - or to vote against their personal best interests. I’ve seen this on HN several times, and it always cracks me up. The condescension isn't dripping. It’s running in torrents. You think the reason they won’t vote the way you want is because they don’t know what’s good for themselves. You might want to consider an alternate: they don’t want someone like you deciding what’s good for…

The opposite -- a presumption that people always vote in their own best interests -- is equally condescending because it's an expression that nobody can really believe. It's like everybody applauding and saying "good job" at the kindergarten music recital. In my view, evidence that people vote against their own interests is the massive industry that exists for the purpose of making that happen. The respectful middle…

Your logical error is assuming that it’s so obvious what “vot[ing] against [one’s] own interests” means. Maybe a stable free market government with a strong cultural and religious framework is in everyone’s interest, and the “massive industry” exists to convince people of that fact?