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What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

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Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#51

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #28
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government is to govern. Government in most countries is driven by democratic mandates. Democratic mandates are set by influencers. The US’ key influencers are largely regressive and dishonest - and convince people to either not vote - or to vote against their personal best interests[1]. The US government does not currently have a democratic mandate to operate as the social welfare state. Consequently hundreds of tho…

If they'd like to, sure; but they don't have to, and we shouldn't be relying on them to. > Democratic mandates are set by influencers. This is a cop out: the electorate is still responsible for the politicians it puts in power. Don't let people off the hook for supporting terrible policies.

> This is a cop out: the electorate is still responsible for the politicians it puts in power.

I disagree. After reading about famous propagandists from the past century I'm just depressed that it's so easy to manipulate enough of the public to vote a particular way.

Yes, it's the people's fault - but the people are fallable and _predictable_ enough to be played like a puppet.

If someone is an idiot and is convinced into doing something criminal even when they know it's wrong, that still doesn't get the person who tricked them into doing it off-the-hook - in serious crimes that's called aiding-and-abetting.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#52

Post by Zarath »

lizardking wrote: post #44
harimau777 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that a better solution is possible in America's current political climate. As I see it there are basically three approaches that a progressive could take in a policy debate: - Persuasion: I think that you are mistaken as to what is in your best interest, here's why my approach would benefit you more. - Negotiation: Here's how we can work together to find a solution that meets both of our interests. - Zer…

You don’t need to convince republicans, you need to convince moderates who can be persuaded to vote one way or the other in a given election. In the context of a general election, we’re talking about thousands of people in a handful of states. I’m struggling with how the idea of “condescension isn’t persuasive” is finding so much friction here.

The democratic party still hasn't learned from their mistakes of the last election unfortunately.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#53

Post by traderjane »

abnry wrote: post #39
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reality is that people can value something different than you (less government intervention, less restrictions on speech, lower taxes) Why do you assume we don't value those things? Isn't that _you_ being condescending now?

Why do you use the word "we"? I wasn't directing my comment to you. An assumption isn't necessarily condescending. I assumed I was talking to someone on the left side of politics and was giving examples for the sake of an argument. If those examples do not in fact work then I can just as well pick other ones.

> You are missing the point. If I say, "I support X" and you say, "I support not X," that's just a disagreement.

> Why do you use the word "we"? I wasn't directing my comment to you.

Indeed this is a communication mystery.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#54

Post by sokoloff »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #17
jtbayly wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> convince people to either not vote - or to vote against their personal best interests. I’ve seen this on HN several times, and it always cracks me up. The condescension isn't dripping. It’s running in torrents. You think the reason they won’t vote the way you want is because they don’t know what’s good for themselves. You might want to consider an alternate: they don’t want someone like you deciding what’s good for…

The UK has just had an election where many people voted for the party which has been in power for nearly ten years and been an utter disaster. Because they want change. Condescension has nothing to do with it. It's empirically observable that a proportion of the electorate doesn't vote in its own best interests. It's also empirically observable there's an entire industry of media outlets, think-tanks, journalists, bl…

> It's empirically observable that a proportion of the electorate doesn't vote in its own best interests.

I'm not sure that's true (that it's empirically observable without bias). The trouble comes from an assumption that by giving up X (that you value only a little) to achieve Y (that you value a lot), that those other people would be better off, when they simply value X a lot more than you do (or Y a lot less). When they consistently vote to prioritize X over Y, you empirically observe some outcomes, apply your own weights to each factor, and conclude they're acting against their own best interests and cite your evidence as empirical proof, ignoring the judgment you applied when determining the weights.

I don't think people exhibiting this bias (unconscious or conscious) are intending to be condescending, but it comes across that way quite often.

Some people prefer to live in a society where the government has minimal power/influence over citizens' daily life (X) while other people prefer to live in a society where government power and influence is strong and consistently exercised to protect the most vulnerable (Y). They're different choices.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#55

Post by leereeves »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #22
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK has just had an election where many people voted for the party which has been in power for nearly ten years and been an utter disaster. Because they want change. Condescension has nothing to do with it. It's empirically observable that a proportion of the electorate doesn't vote in its own best interests. It's also empirically observable there's an entire industry of media outlets, think-tanks, journalists, bl…

The 2019 election - just like the previous 3, subverted the popular vote by way of First Past the Post. Nationally, the pro-leave side only secured a minority of the vote. And unfortunately a major problem with proportional representation is there's no one single best way to achieve PR - any campaign to achieve PR would be stymied by splitting the pro-PR faction between STV and IRV, for example.

> The 2019 election - just like the previous 3, subverted the popular vote by way of First Past the Post. Nationally, the pro-leave side only secured a minority of the vote.

Labour's official position is to negotiate a deal and then hold a final referendum. [1]

So there were three positions in the election (leave, remain, vote again) and leave won the largest share of the popular vote.

1:https://labour.org.uk/page/labour-brexit-plan/

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#56

Post by jashmatthews »

jtbayly wrote: post #13
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government is to govern. Government in most countries is driven by democratic mandates. Democratic mandates are set by influencers. The US’ key influencers are largely regressive and dishonest - and convince people to either not vote - or to vote against their personal best interests[1]. The US government does not currently have a democratic mandate to operate as the social welfare state. Consequently hundreds of tho…

> convince people to either not vote - or to vote against their personal best interests. I’ve seen this on HN several times, and it always cracks me up. The condescension isn't dripping. It’s running in torrents. You think the reason they won’t vote the way you want is because they don’t know what’s good for themselves. You might want to consider an alternate: they don’t want someone like you deciding what’s good for…

If you look at the 1997 Labour manifesto, which led to the UK doubling GDP from 97 to and 2007 and the 2019 Labour manifesto they’re very similar.

If you ask people if Labour was good for the economy and would be good for the economy, you’ll largely get a negative response.

Unfortunately it’s easy for people’s opinions to be shaped with zero basis in fact and when this happens it’s easy for them to vote against their own interest.

This has little to do with a condescending left and much more to do with how well the Conservstives play and are supported by the media.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#57

Post by nothrabannosir »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #51
TulliusCicero wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they'd like to, sure; but they don't have to, and we shouldn't be relying on them to. > Democratic mandates are set by influencers. This is a cop out: the electorate is still responsible for the politicians it puts in power. Don't let people off the hook for supporting terrible policies.

> This is a cop out: the electorate is still responsible for the politicians it puts in power. I disagree. After reading about famous propagandists from the past century I'm just depressed that it's so easy to manipulate enough of the public to vote a particular way. Yes, it's the people's fault - but the people are fallable and _predictable_ enough to be played like a puppet. If someone is an idiot and is convinced…

Both can be true (and probably are). Yes, modern propaganda is odious, but also yes, don’t let us off the hook. At least while we feel responsible for our elections, we have some modicum of interest in them. I’ve seen countries where they’ve lost hope, who are democratic in name only. It’s not pretty.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#58

Post by kd5bjo »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #32
traderjane wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is DaiPlusPlus is forcing things down people's throats? Is DaiPlusPlus' condescension running in torrents? Are you being condescending? If I say that consumers are being tricked by ad companies, am I being condescending? How dare I make judgments on so many people? And when American Christians say that Jesus Christ is the only true way and that Islam is a false path, and that all other ways are false pathways which l…

To be fair to jtbayly - I do agree I came across as presumptuous and paternalistic to state people are voting against their personal best interests. While I cannot, at all, claim to know what's in someone's interests, let alone their best interests - it is possible to reasonably determine when someone is voting _against_ their interests - especially when there is evidence of emotional manipulation or misrepresentatio…

> it's demonstrable that they did not vote in their rational best interests

Actually, it's not. You're reducing the whole spectrum of things that they may care about to the single axis of healthcare costs, and not performing any analysis of the opposition position.

It may be that the representative these people voted for aligns significantly better to their values than any other choice that was available.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#59

Post by harimau777 »

lizardking wrote: post #44
harimau777 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that a better solution is possible in America's current political climate. As I see it there are basically three approaches that a progressive could take in a policy debate: - Persuasion: I think that you are mistaken as to what is in your best interest, here's why my approach would benefit you more. - Negotiation: Here's how we can work together to find a solution that meets both of our interests. - Zer…

You don’t need to convince republicans, you need to convince moderates who can be persuaded to vote one way or the other in a given election. In the context of a general election, we’re talking about thousands of people in a handful of states. I’m struggling with how the idea of “condescension isn’t persuasive” is finding so much friction here.

The issue that I see is that due to the electoral college and gerrymandering, it can be difficult to win even if you can convince moderates.

The other issue is that many of the issues that progressives are concerned about (e.g. climate change, inequality, gun control) require action by society as a whole. Ideally we would negotiate and find policies that address the priorities of both progressives and conservatives. However, that doesn't currently seem to be possible.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#60

Post by sokoloff »

krapp wrote: post #50
seibelj wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The condescending part is that the left views poor people who vote for non-democrats as voting against their self-interest. No one knows what someone’s self-interest is except the person who is voting. Considering the US has only 2 major options on elections, there is a panoply of reasons why someone votes and merely saying “poor people who vote republican are brainwashed idiots” is what grates on people who believe…

>the condescending part is that the left views poor people who vote for non-democrats as voting against their self-interest. And the right views poor people who vote for Democrats as lazy grifters just looking for a handout, naive fools in the pocket of globalist elites, or else not "real Americans" like themselves. It isn't only the left or Democrats which have a problem in this regard. The right/Republican end of t…

Naked contempt from one side. Pitying condescension from the other.

It's nice that we have a choice.

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