What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code? • Hacker News Board

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#21

Post by syshum » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 1:53 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #2

> We need to applaud companies like Slack, but know that the nitty-gritty of human services—housing, health care, social support—which lots of nonprofits and public institutions are working on, the private sector has largely turned away from.” I mean, yeah? Those things sound like they’re precisely the kind of stuff that’s the domain of non-profits and the government. Why would we expect Slack or other tech companies…

>>You can blame the government,

I dont blame government, as it is not and should not be the governments role to do this.

>Those things sound like they’re precisely the kind of stuff that’s the domain of non-profits and the government.

Non-Profits yes, government no

Government sole and only job should be to preserve and protect the rights of citizens. Expanding government beyond this role has always lead to disaster and human suffering

> you don’t want the institutions with profit motive to be the ones handling charitable works

While true in some sense, HN's continual hostility to profit is absurd. Profit motive is what leads innovation, what makes things cheaper, and what allows charity to feed 100 people with a $100-200 donation...

Profit Motive is what has brought the massive reduction in poverty world wide...

It was not government, it was Free markets that did this

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#22

Post by DaiPlusPlus » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 1:57 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #17

jtbayly wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> convince people to either not vote - or to vote against their personal best interests. I’ve seen this on HN several times, and it always cracks me up. The condescension isn't dripping. It’s running in torrents. You think the reason they won’t vote the way you want is because they don’t know what’s good for themselves. You might want to consider an alternate: they don’t want someone like you deciding what’s good for…

The UK has just had an election where many people voted for the party which has been in power for nearly ten years and been an utter disaster. Because they want change. Condescension has nothing to do with it. It's empirically observable that a proportion of the electorate doesn't vote in its own best interests. It's also empirically observable there's an entire industry of media outlets, think-tanks, journalists, bl…

The 2019 election - just like the previous 3, subverted the popular vote by way of First Past the Post. Nationally, the pro-leave side only secured a minority of the vote.

And unfortunately a major problem with proportional representation is there's no one single best way to achieve PR - any campaign to achieve PR would be stymied by splitting the pro-PR faction between STV and IRV, for example.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#23

Post by harimau777 » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 1:57 PM UTC

jtbayly wrote: post #13

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government is to govern. Government in most countries is driven by democratic mandates. Democratic mandates are set by influencers. The US’ key influencers are largely regressive and dishonest - and convince people to either not vote - or to vote against their personal best interests[1]. The US government does not currently have a democratic mandate to operate as the social welfare state. Consequently hundreds of tho…

> convince people to either not vote - or to vote against their personal best interests. I’ve seen this on HN several times, and it always cracks me up. The condescension isn't dripping. It’s running in torrents. You think the reason they won’t vote the way you want is because they don’t know what’s good for themselves. You might want to consider an alternate: they don’t want someone like you deciding what’s good for…

What approach would you suggest?

What I mean is that any attempt to change policy/society/laws/government innately involves deciding that something would be good for society as a whole and then attempting to get laws put in place that force it to happen.

Therefore, your post doesn't seem to be actionable since it basically boils down to "don't do anything".

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#24

Post by burntoutfire » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 1:58 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #17

jtbayly wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> convince people to either not vote - or to vote against their personal best interests. I’ve seen this on HN several times, and it always cracks me up. The condescension isn't dripping. It’s running in torrents. You think the reason they won’t vote the way you want is because they don’t know what’s good for themselves. You might want to consider an alternate: they don’t want someone like you deciding what’s good for…

The UK has just had an election where many people voted for the party which has been in power for nearly ten years and been an utter disaster. Because they want change. Condescension has nothing to do with it. It's empirically observable that a proportion of the electorate doesn't vote in its own best interests. It's also empirically observable there's an entire industry of media outlets, think-tanks, journalists, bl…

Isn't the majority of the UK media supporting the party that lost?

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#25

Post by anongraddebt » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 1:58 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #17

jtbayly wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> convince people to either not vote - or to vote against their personal best interests. I’ve seen this on HN several times, and it always cracks me up. The condescension isn't dripping. It’s running in torrents. You think the reason they won’t vote the way you want is because they don’t know what’s good for themselves. You might want to consider an alternate: they don’t want someone like you deciding what’s good for…

The UK has just had an election where many people voted for the party which has been in power for nearly ten years and been an utter disaster. Because they want change. Condescension has nothing to do with it. It's empirically observable that a proportion of the electorate doesn't vote in its own best interests. It's also empirically observable there's an entire industry of media outlets, think-tanks, journalists, bl…

Benedict Evans, though he lives in SV, would not have voted for Corbyn if he lived in the UK. Does Benedict Evans not know which political ideology is good for his own self-interest?

How do you explain away people who didn't vote for Corbyn because... they would prefer a non-anti-semitic leader? I have a hunch. You might say, "Well these people were duped. He isn't IN FACT an anti-semite." But, now the goal posts have changed and the discussion moves to whether certain claims are true, not whatever is in someone's best interest.

The thought that people you disagree with are simply fools because they don't know what is in their best self-interest, is not only arrogant, it's patently just not how the world works. Like always, it all comes down to whether your position or their position actually maps to reality. And if you think that you can't be wrong, or that it isn't likely that you get at least some things wrong, then your position is already hosed (not to mention lacks epistemological humility).

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#26

Post by seibelj » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 2:02 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #20

lizardking wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American political left would gain immensely and lose exactly nothing by being less condescending. The first line of argument they should abandon is telling people they are voting against their own interests. It’s remarkably insulting, and arrogantly presupposes you know know better what another person’s interests are.

I usually see the argument "you're voting against your own interests" from the free-market, libertarianish side. You may be right that it's often viewed as condescending, but I'm not sure what the alternative would be since the proper pursuit of 'enlightened self-interest' is the whole point of that sort of politics.

The condescending part is that the left views poor people who vote for non-democrats as voting against their self-interest. No one knows what someone’s self-interest is except the person who is voting. Considering the US has only 2 major options on elections, there is a panoply of reasons why someone votes and merely saying “poor people who vote republican are brainwashed idiots” is what grates on people who believe everyone has their own agency regardless of their economic class.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#27

Post by tyingq » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 2:03 PM UTC

pytester wrote: post #14

tyingq wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this particular case, I think it's worth it even it is self serving. The advent of cheap online background checks has added to the already difficult task of getting a job if you're a felon. Any publicity around hiring them helps normalize it as expected.

This piece of PR fluff isn't helping regular ex cons get regular jobs in non-tight labor markets.

If you look at what funded the article, at the bottom, I believe that's the intent. Though, yes, they did over gush about Slack.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#28

Post by TulliusCicero » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 2:03 PM UTC

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #5

TulliusCicero wrote: post #2

> We need to applaud companies like Slack, but know that the nitty-gritty of human services—housing, health care, social support—which lots of nonprofits and public institutions are working on, the private sector has largely turned away from.” I mean, yeah? Those things sound like they’re precisely the kind of stuff that’s the domain of non-profits and the government. Why would we expect Slack or other tech companies…

Government is to govern. Government in most countries is driven by democratic mandates. Democratic mandates are set by influencers. The US’ key influencers are largely regressive and dishonest - and convince people to either not vote - or to vote against their personal best interests[1]. The US government does not currently have a democratic mandate to operate as the social welfare state. Consequently hundreds of tho…

If they'd like to, sure; but they don't have to, and we shouldn't be relying on them to.

> Democratic mandates are set by influencers.

This is a cop out: the electorate is still responsible for the politicians it puts in power. Don't let people off the hook for supporting terrible policies.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#29

Post by rjsw » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 2:04 PM UTC

burntoutfire wrote: post #24

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK has just had an election where many people voted for the party which has been in power for nearly ten years and been an utter disaster. Because they want change. Condescension has nothing to do with it. It's empirically observable that a proportion of the electorate doesn't vote in its own best interests. It's also empirically observable there's an entire industry of media outlets, think-tanks, journalists, bl…

Isn't the majority of the UK media supporting the party that lost?

No, most of the UK media supports the party that won.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#30

Post by abnry » Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 2:05 PM UTC

traderjane wrote: post #18

jtbayly wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> convince people to either not vote - or to vote against their personal best interests. I’ve seen this on HN several times, and it always cracks me up. The condescension isn't dripping. It’s running in torrents. You think the reason they won’t vote the way you want is because they don’t know what’s good for themselves. You might want to consider an alternate: they don’t want someone like you deciding what’s good for…

Is DaiPlusPlus is forcing things down people's throats? Is DaiPlusPlus' condescension running in torrents? Are you being condescending? If I say that consumers are being tricked by ad companies, am I being condescending? How dare I make judgments on so many people? And when American Christians say that Jesus Christ is the only true way and that Islam is a false path, and that all other ways are false pathways which l…

You are missing the point. If I say, "I support X" and you say, "I support not X," that's just a disagreement.

If I say, "I support" and you say, "I support not X, and if you weren't so blind you'd think that too," that's being condescending because you are assuming that someone (a) has fundamentally the same values than you but is (b) too stupid to see it.

The reality is that people can value something different than you (less government intervention, less restrictions on speech, lower taxes) for fundamental reasons different than yours, not because they basically agree with you and are too stupid to understand. This is different than merely arguing truth claims, because fundamentally political choice is a choice. There is no One True Way(TM) to govern and people prefer different things.