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Cyc

en.wikipedia.org

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Re: Cyc

#41
post #27

I worked for Cycorp for a few years recently. AMA, I guess? I obviously won't give away any secrets (e.g. business partners, finer grained details of how the inference engine works), but I can talk about the company culture, some high level technical things and the interpretation of the project that different people at the company have that makes it seem more viable than you might guess from the outside. There were s…

Two easy ones for you: 1) How did they manage to make money for so long to keep things afloat? I'm guessing through some self-sustainable projects like the few business relationships listed in the wiki? 2) What's the tech stack like? (Language, deployment, etc)

1) The money situation has changed over the years, and they've had times where things have boomed or busted - it's been a while since I left but I think they're still in a "boom" phase. There are a lottt more projects with different companies or organizations than the ones listed on the wiki, but they tend to be pretty secretive and I won't name names.

The categories of projects that I was familiar with were basically proof of concept work for companies or government R&D contracts. There are lots of big companies that will throw a few million at a long-shot AI project just to see if it pays off, even if they don't always have a very clear idea of what they ultimately want or a concrete plan to build a product around it. Sometimes these would pay off, sometimes they wouldn't but we'd get by on the initial investment for proof of concept work. Similarly, organizations like DARPA will fund multiple speculative projects around a similar goal (e.g. education - that's where "Mathcraft" came from IIRC) to evaluate the most promising direction.

There have been a few big hits in the company's history, most of which I can't talk about. The hits have basically been in very circumscribed knowledge domains where there's a lot of data, a lot of opportunity for simple common sense inferences (e.g. if Alice worked for the ABC team of company A at the same time Bob worked for the XYZ team of company B and companies A and B were collaborating on a project involving the ABC and XYZ teams at that same time, then Alice and Bob have probably met) and you have reason to follow all those connections looking for patterns, but it's just too much data for a human to make a map of. Cyc can answer questions about probable business or knowledge relationships between individuals in large sets of people in a few seconds, which would be weeks of human research and certain institutions pay a high premium for that kind of thing.

2) Oh god. Get ready. Here's a 10k foot overview of a crazy thing. All this is apparent if you use OpenCyc so I feel pretty safe talking about it. Cyc is divided into the inference engine and the knowledge base. Both are expressed in different custom LISPy dialects. The knowledge base language is like a layer on top of the inference engine language.

The inference engine language has LISPy syntax but is crucially very un-LISPy in certain ways (way more procedural, no lambdas, reading it makes me want to die). To build the inference engine, you run a process that translates the inference code into Java and compiles that. Read that closely - it doesn't compile to JVM bytecode, it transpiles to Java source files, which are then compiled. This process was created before languages other than Java targeting the JVM were really a thing. There was a push to transition to Clojure or something for the next version of Cyc, but I don't know how far it got off the ground because of 30 years of technical debt.

The knowledge base itself is basically a set of images running on servers that periodically serialize their state in a way that can be restarted - individual ontologists can boot up their own images, make changes and transmit those to the central images. This model predates things like version control and things can get hairy when different images get too out of sync. Again, there was an effort to build a kind of git-equivalent to ease those pains, which I think was mostly finished but not widely adopted.

There are project-specific knowledge base branches that get deployed in their own images to customers, and specific knowledge base subsets used for different things.

Re: Cyc

#42
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought so on first glance too, but from what I've heard from someone who worked there, it's working software and it makes a lot of money. That's the opposite of a pipe dream, even if far short of AGI.

Is it making real money, or speculative money on the moon shot premise that AGI will rule it all if successful? I worked at an AI company before, and it was the latter.

My understanding is mostly the latter, but definitely also the former, but it's based off of "I worked there, but our customer list isn't public so I can't tell you who" type statements like you'll see elsewhere.

If I had to guess what it's been actually used for, I'd wager it's money laundering or counter-terrorism type stuff; it's fairly well suited to finding connections between people and entities given a large data-set, and unlike many ML models, it can tell you why it thinks someone is suspicious, which might be needed for justifying further investigation. This is a completely wild-ass guess though so take with a giant grain of salt.

Re: Cyc

#43

I worked for Cycorp for a few years recently. AMA, I guess? I obviously won't give away any secrets (e.g. business partners, finer grained details of how the inference engine works), but I can talk about the company culture, some high level technical things and the interpretation of the project that different people at the company have that makes it seem more viable than you might guess from the outside. There were s…

Do you hire philosophers?

Re: Cyc

#45
post #36

Why is there never any fundamental research whether human intelligence is even computable? All these huge, expensive projects based on an untested premise.

Why wouldn't it be? It seems to me that at worst we would have to wait for computers to become as powerful and complex as a human brain, and then simulating human intelligence would be a matter of accurately modelling the connections. Is there doubt as to whether a neuron can be represented computationally?

Yes there is doubt. Can you say for sure that we have a complete model of all physics, and that all physics can be represented computationally? We're still discovering new features of neurons at the quantum level. Who knows how far down it goes. There may be some unknown physics at play inside neurons that can not be computed by a Turing machine. https://www.elsevier.com/about/press-releases/research-and-j...

Re: Cyc

#46
post #43

I worked for Cycorp for a few years recently. AMA, I guess? I obviously won't give away any secrets (e.g. business partners, finer grained details of how the inference engine works), but I can talk about the company culture, some high level technical things and the interpretation of the project that different people at the company have that makes it seem more viable than you might guess from the outside. There were s…

Do you hire philosophers?

Yes, quite a few. The prerequisite is basically that you have to be able to do formal logic at the first order level and also Doug has to be in a good mood when you do the interview.

Re: Cyc

#47
post #25

The the following utterance, sort of looks like the triplet data structure used in graph/knowledge databases: "Alive loves Bob" What do you know? Nothing. Was it Alice who said she loves Bob, or was it Bob who said it is Alice who loves him, maybe Carol saw the way Alice looks at Bob and then conclude she must love him. What is love anyway? How exactly is the love Alice has for Bob quantitively different than my love…

Agreed. Human thinking is arbitrarily high-order -- we use statements about statements about statements with no particular natural complexity limit. This seems to me the big limitation of knowledge graphs: The majority of real-world information, just like the majority of natural-language sentences, are highly nested relationships among relationships.

That was my motivation for writing Hode[1], the Higher-Order Data Editor. It lets you represent arbitrarily nested relationships, of any arity (number of members). It lets you cursor around data to view neighboring data, and it offers a query language that is, I believe, as close as possible to ordinary natural language.

(Hode has no inference engine, and I don't call it an AI project -- but it seems relevant enough to warrant a plug.)

[1] https://github.com/JeffreyBenjaminBrown/hode

Re: Cyc

#48
post #36

Why is there never any fundamental research whether human intelligence is even computable? All these huge, expensive projects based on an untested premise.

There has been some philosophical speculating but that's generally not very actionable, with people clinging to either side of the question. On the practical side, it's the sort of thing which you can't just throw money at and make progress. Ok, you have $100mil to research whether human intelligence is computable. What do you do? Hire lots of humans and assign them noncomputable tasks and tap your foot waiting for one of them to turn out to be the next Oracle of Delphi? That's fantastic if one of them does, but if none of them do, then you've made zero progress: there's no way to know whether you failed because human intelligence is computable, or whether you failed because you chose the wrong tasks/humans.

Re: Cyc

#49

My 2 cents is that I can ask just about any question I can think of and absorb and internalize an amazing answer in 5 minutes of reading. Many of those same questions can be automatically asked and answered too. The web and search engines are realizing the promise far better than anything else.

God I wish I felt this way. It's true that I can get an amazing amount of information in a short time, but I don't know how accurate or complete it is, and I don't even know how to find out.

Re: Cyc

#50
post #36

Why is there never any fundamental research whether human intelligence is even computable? All these huge, expensive projects based on an untested premise.

But there is. We have fundamental research into whether physics is computable. We also have fundamental research on the physical structure of human consciousness/intelligence. So first we need to discover the physical model of human intelligence, and then we can determine its computability.
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