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The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

theatlantic.com

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Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#541

Post by elliekelly »

thu2111 wrote: post #530
elliekelly wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woman lawyer from Wall Street here. That’s about as “Old Boys Club” as it gets. When I left law to pursue tech I figured it couldn’t possibly be as bad as what I was leaving behind. I was so wrong. Silicon Valley is infinitely more difficult to navigate and less welcoming. The major difference (in my opinion) is that the Old Boys Club owns it. They know they’re not welcoming to women and for the most part they don’t…

Given the rampant discrimination against men that exists in the modern tech sector and that even stating "maybe women naturally prefer to do other jobs than tech" gets you fired, what exactly do you have in mind that would make it even more welcoming?

Are you... insisting that tech is welcoming to women?

Hm. I guess it was all in my head.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#542

Post by funcDropShadow »

liziwizi wrote: post #540
partiallypro wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why modern society doesn't understand/want to believe that men and women have different career interests than men. Men and women value things differently, and it's not all because of society.

i hate this argument so much! it has been thrown in my face soooooooo many times... it's the go-to excuse managers and sales people use to tell a woman in IT that she's weird for doing what she does. even in teams with 90% men, it was almost never the men in the team that were the problem, but almost always those looking in on the team: managers, sales people, marketeers, project managers, journalists, ... please, st…

Does the fact that you "hate that argument" invalidate it in any way?

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#543

Post by rayiner »

tomp wrote: post #457
tptacek wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't, but I also don't care to debate it, and don't need to, because, once again, face-to-face interactions are also extremely common in professional software development.

You’ve a skewed perception of “extremely common”. There are many jobs where pretty much the entire job is dealing with people - doctor, lawyer, clerk, marketer, teacher, ... in contrast, programmers can get a lot of stuff done ( except coordination) just with computers. And some of us like it that way.

This seems like shifting rationalization to me. They used to say women don’t want to be lawyers because it’s too much confrontation. Now women are well represented in law because it’s people oriented. Moreover, corporate law firms are 50% women, but that work is even more solitary than programming in a corporate environment. (Having done both myself.) You’re sitting in your office alone reviewing documents, writing briefs, or doing due diligence ten times as much as you’re in court or talking to clients.

Also, if programming is solitary as you suggest, why do tech companies discourage remote work and insist on culture fit, team building, collaborative work spaces, etc.? Much more so than law firms.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#544

Post by JoeAltmaier »

rayiner wrote: post #543
tomp wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve a skewed perception of “extremely common”. There are many jobs where pretty much the entire job is dealing with people - doctor, lawyer, clerk, marketer, teacher, ... in contrast, programmers can get a lot of stuff done ( except coordination) just with computers. And some of us like it that way.

This seems like shifting rationalization to me. They used to say women don’t want to be lawyers because it’s too much confrontation. Now women are well represented in law because it’s people oriented. Moreover, corporate law firms are 50% women, but that work is even more solitary than programming in a corporate environment. (Having done both myself.) You’re sitting in your office alone reviewing documents, writing b…

I've wondered about that. I think its part the youth culture of programming. Have to be in the clique to be acceptable. Counteracting the isolation of the programming process, with rules to try and create social interaction in the group.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#545

Post by funcDropShadow »

jayd16 wrote: post #368
briandear wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many engineers are represented in the media in general? Has there been a hit TV show with male engineers as the main character?

Big bang theory, for example, has mostly male nerds. The core Silicon Valley engineering team is male. There are of course exceptions but male and female engineers are not represented equally in media.

But what should they represent? The real world, some fictional idealistic world? If so, whose idealistic world should tv shows represent?

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#546

Post by foldr »

belorn wrote: post #523
foldr wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most worlds armies are conscription, Yes, but so what? The gender requirement on front-line service has never been limited to conscription. >It not a privilege. This is a well-worn argument. When women wanted to vote and join the workplace, they also got told that these things were terrible burdens that they ought to be glad not to have to bear. Clearly, there are women who do want to join the military, just as ther…

> Until recently, the men in charge thought that they should not. Not men as a group. Rich old men thought that poor young men, disproportionately African Americans, should be forced into the military. In modern context we still have remnant views that military is a punishment. Popular culture often use the trope that troublesome boys who don't behave get sent to military school so the boy can redeem themselves in th…

>Not men as a group.

Of course it was men as a group. You only have to go back a few decades to get to a time when the majority of men, across social classes, found the idea of women serving in the military ridiculous.

I still don't see how the rest of your comment is relevant to this discussion. Again, the gender requirement was not specific to conscription.

>One never see the idea of sending misbehaving girls to military school.

Because girls couldn't join the military!

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#547

Post by JoeAltmaier »

jayd16 wrote: post #368
briandear wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many engineers are represented in the media in general? Has there been a hit TV show with male engineers as the main character?

Big bang theory, for example, has mostly male nerds. The core Silicon Valley engineering team is male. There are of course exceptions but male and female engineers are not represented equally in media.

Big Bang Theory first season maybe. Ultimately they were almost parity.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#548

Post by funcDropShadow »

elliekelly wrote: post #498
oarabbus_ wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medicine and Law have made serious efforts to counter sexism? Like what? Law is essentially the definition of the "Old Boys Club" and as for Medicine... I used to work in the medical field for a while. Go ask any (female) surgical nurse about the supposed efforts to counter sexism in the OR. I don't believe your claim is true.

Woman lawyer from Wall Street here. That’s about as “Old Boys Club” as it gets. When I left law to pursue tech I figured it couldn’t possibly be as bad as what I was leaving behind. I was so wrong. Silicon Valley is infinitely more difficult to navigate and less welcoming. The major difference (in my opinion) is that the Old Boys Club owns it. They know they’re not welcoming to women and for the most part they don’t…

Would you care to give some examples, what behaviour is so unwelcoming in the tech world?

Did you consider other reasons than sexism for the environment that you perceive as unwelcoming? E.g., I guess the ratio of introverts vs. extroverts is pretty different between Wall Street law firms and software developers.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#549

Post by SolaceQuantum »

jelliclesfarm wrote: post #330
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But does this mean nonbinary people shouldn't get personal spaces, or their own personal space, and what happens when someone is genderfluid, etc, do they have to shift their personal space each time they feel more male/female? I'm mostly just trying to understand how this is applicable within my circle of friends.

I don’t know. I haven’t given it much thought, but would like to know more. I am listening.

I'm confused- what are you listening for? I'm actually trying to listen to you and applying this philosophy that different gender identities require different spaces with my reality that there is a sizeable portion of the population that do not fall strictly on "male" or "female" identity.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#550

Post by jressey »

tmh79 wrote: post #318
lgleason wrote: post #130

It all comes down to equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. When there is equality of opportunity women choose different fields...often (but not always) because of different interests. Equality of outcome forces people to do things that they may not have an interest in. And that is before you get into interests vs natural talent and how that does or does not affect ones success in a field. On a fundamental l…

> As to the men being jerks/toxic etc argument... I think its a lot more complicated than this. Yes, men and women can be jerks. The bigger issues seem to be when a team is 80%+ one gender or another, and the issues aren't about "being mean" the issues are about the dominant group being blind to and then not accommodating the nondominant group's needs. A huge problem is that we have a lot of 6 person tech teams with…

I have managed delivery teams and this all fits my experience. One sex can have 100% best intentions but can nonetheless dominate. My best performing, and funnest, teams have been nearly equally split.
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