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The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

theatlantic.com

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Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#411

Post by TulliusCicero »

foldr wrote: post #402
TulliusCicero wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, that doctors and lawyers were substantially less sexist compared to engineers in the 60's and 70's also strikes me as less than plausible, though I'll grant that'd be a closer competition than comparing them to engineers now. Do you have any evidence of an advantage there?

I am talking about relative levels of sexism in the present, not in the 60s and 70s.

But the 60's and 70's are when the representation levels started really diverging. That's the key part.

That they may be less sexist now, after having achieved gender parity or something close to it, is hardly unexpected. Of course a field with roughly even numbers is usually going to be less sexist than one dominated by one gender or another.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#412

Post by stale2002 »

throwaway09851 wrote: post #271
lgleason wrote: post #130

It all comes down to equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. When there is equality of opportunity women choose different fields...often (but not always) because of different interests. Equality of outcome forces people to do things that they may not have an interest in. And that is before you get into interests vs natural talent and how that does or does not affect ones success in a field. On a fundamental l…

I am a woman, and this pervasive opinion that women are leaving STEM fields because of toxic behavior feels more sexist to me than anything else. It seems to me that if you have a genuine passion for STEM stuff, it takes a lot more than a bad environment to completely redirect your career path. Every woman I know with a genuine and deep interest in STEM subjects has had to deal with some level of toxic/sexist/whateve…

> they persevered and dealt with it because they weren't going to let it get in the way of their passion.

Yes, it is true that if someone is really passionate about something, then they will put up with a lot of bad things and problems.

But I am confused as to why you think this is a valid argument as for why society shouldn't try to solve these problems.

There is still a lot of value in fixing problems, so that people who would be otherwise interested, will want to join.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#413

Post by TulliusCicero »

Thorentis wrote: post #405
TulliusCicero wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/lean-out-t... > In four studies, Bowles and collaborators from Carnegie Mellon found that people penalized women who initiated negotiations for higher compensation more than they did men. The effect held whether they saw the negotiation on video or read about it on paper, whether they viewed it from a disinterested third-party perspective or imagined themselves as sen…

Rubbish "study". Nothing in there is based on reality, but people put in a test environment and asked to try and behave how they would in the real world. Reading written accounts of people asking for a pay rise and deciding what to do? How does that in any way mirror an face to face interaction? All 4 experiments are either on paper, or using video recordings. No statistics, very few people. Just another "gender gap"…

How exactly would you measure social 'punishment' in response to negotiating in the real world? Contact random women's bosses right after they attempt to negotiate and ask them how they felt about it? You could set up interviews with real companies using your own candidates who will negotiate or not negotiate as you direct them, but then how do you gather data on the feelings of the bosses?

Some things can only really be tested in artificial environments.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#414

Post by marcosdumay »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #203
kaitai wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people, period, are not interested in programming a computer all day. My girl child likes trucks, not Frozen, and the pressure from other adults to get her to conform and play with Disney-branded dolls is non-trivial and unrelenting. Ugh.

> the pressure from other adults to get her to conform and play with Disney-branded dolls is non-trivial and unrelenting Throw them out, seriously. I did when they got to be too large a portion of the toys.

Often you can just return them to the store and get something she likes.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#415

Post by banads »

tptacek wrote: post #385
banads wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Accepting that girl infants prefer faces and boy infants prefer trucks—what does that have to do with programming? Programming jobs often involve extremely minimal face to face interactions

I've spent the last 15 years of my life working with engineering teams, hundreds of them, and I've never met a single one that worked this way. The opposite thing is true, unless you're fixated on literal in-the-same-room face-to-face interactions, in which case, what's your point?

You think programmers spend more time having face to face (as opposed to face to computer) interactions than people in health care, child care, social work, or education?

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#416

Post by danans »

throwaway8548 wrote: post #70
iamsb wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely does. I know many men in India who would rather do something else than do engineering. Look at the background of most standup comedians in India for example. Most of them come from engineering/stem background and use that to fulfill their side hustle to be a comic and then become full time comics if successful. I was personally far more interested in studying classic Sanskrit literature, but was talked…

I should rephrase. Why does it affect men disproportionately less?

Because men have more options for careers that provide an upper middle income lifestyle in India than women. Tech is one of the few that women have access to that can provide that.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#417

Post by johntiger1 »

roenxi wrote: post #325
foldr wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, a lot of people are saying that sexism is the cause of disparity in those cases. It's a commonplace observation that sexism harms men as well as women. Historically, the professions you're alluding to have been closed to women by men . So for example, the reason that women couldn't serve in the military until relatively recently is not that women used their power and influence within society to get a pass o…

I'd hope if women had thought about the serving example they would have made the same choice out of a sensible respect for setting up the future. A society that keeps their women from dying needless deaths has a reproductive advantage over societies that send them into the meat grinder - the protective society can produce more children after the conflict. From a quick and lazy glance at some statistics [0] losing a y…

Wow, extremely insightful point, and did not realize that! But it makes sense when we consider it from a biological standpoint: men are needed "temporarily" in the reproductive process to put it mildly. Perhaps this explains the slow growth of the soviet union after ww2 (# of women killed serving in the military)?

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#418

Post by tptacek »

banads wrote: post #415
tptacek wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spent the last 15 years of my life working with engineering teams, hundreds of them, and I've never met a single one that worked this way. The opposite thing is true, unless you're fixated on literal in-the-same-room face-to-face interactions, in which case, what's your point?

You think programmers spend more time having face to face (as opposed to face to computer) interactions than people in health care, child care, social work, or education?

I don't believe the distinction between face-to-face and screen-to-screen is at all relevant. But: the programmers I work with spend lots of time in meetings, too.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#419

Post by EGreg »

What if I just post an alternative hypothesis without any apologies? Let’s find out...

Perhaps women in general are less interested than men in problems that require long stretches of “cold” and abstract reasoning, including building back-end software, and prefer activities that involve more human interaction or more frequent decisions involving “warmer” human elements such as aesthetics, human perception, relationship building, understanding everyday needs etc.

Also, perhaps women prefer more of a work-life balance, and not stretching themselves too thin when working on abstractions?

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#420

Post by tj-teej »

lgleason wrote: post #130

It all comes down to equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. When there is equality of opportunity women choose different fields...often (but not always) because of different interests. Equality of outcome forces people to do things that they may not have an interest in. And that is before you get into interests vs natural talent and how that does or does not affect ones success in a field. On a fundamental l…

This article implies that the correlation between gender-opportunity and representation in STEM is a causation.

Look at the chart in the article, look at the countries on each end of the opportunity spectrum. There are many obvious economic, societal, and cultural differences between the countries on one side and the other of that spectrum.

To take this correlation and use it to forward a sexist idea (that women PREFER different, often worse-paying, fields and that's why there's less women, and thus we don't need to change anything in our industry's culture) is the reason I would downvote this article and the OP's comment.

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