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The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

theatlantic.com

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Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#301

Post by ajuc »

Buldak wrote: post #255
lgleason wrote: post #130

It all comes down to equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. When there is equality of opportunity women choose different fields...often (but not always) because of different interests. Equality of outcome forces people to do things that they may not have an interest in. And that is before you get into interests vs natural talent and how that does or does not affect ones success in a field. On a fundamental l…

Practically no one endorses "equality of outcome" in itself. It's a question of whether disparate outcomes evidence disparate opportunities (findings like those in question suggest that they may not).

Gender quotas are basically enforcing equality of outcome. If the reason for disparity in some trades isn't discrimination but preferences (as this article strongly suggests) - gender quotas make both man and women less happy to satisfy statistics and ideology. It's insane.

BTW I wonder if people proposing gender quotas because of pay gap would also support gender quotas in hospitals to fight life expectance gap, and gender quotas in psychiatry to fight suicide percentage gap.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#302

Post by [deleted] »

TurkishPoptart wrote: post #297
foldr wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not imply this, because it's likely to be relative rather than absolute levels of sexism that are relevant.

I don't think the field is sexist. I think fewer women choose to study and excel at it. The field is open to whomever wants to have a go at it. Due to "corporate diversity policy" I think (as a man) have less of a chance of actually breaking into software engineering than, say, 10 years ago.

[deleted]

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#303

Post by foldr »

mistrial9 wrote: post #298
foldr wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>this implies that male doctors and lawyers in the 60's and 70's were less sexist than male engineers of today. I don't see how it implies this. The more relevant question is whether STEM has higher levels of sexism than other similarly attractive fields.

the highest levels of sexism I have personally seen are in Finance, followed by construction workers; the highest levels of complaining I have personally seen are in FOSS UnConferences and PhD level academia.

It makes sense that higher levels of complaining would correlate with lower levels of sexism. Things don't usually get fixed unless people complain.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#304

Post by zarkov99 »

foldr wrote: post #299
zarkov99 wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/04/the-10-most-dangerous-jobs-f... I ignored the "for men" qualifier as it seems obvious that these are the most dangerous jobs period.

Fair enough. I believe those stats are skewed by a small number of pilots doing relatively dangerous kinds of flying. In any case, yes, more women would be doing these jobs if sexism were eliminated.

OK, but would you expect a 50/50 split if it was? And if you do not expect it, then how would you explain any remaining disparity?

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#305

Post by bitwize »

WalterBright wrote: post #300
throwaway09851 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a woman, and this pervasive opinion that women are leaving STEM fields because of toxic behavior feels more sexist to me than anything else. It seems to me that if you have a genuine passion for STEM stuff, it takes a lot more than a bad environment to completely redirect your career path. Every woman I know with a genuine and deep interest in STEM subjects has had to deal with some level of toxic/sexist/whateve…

> Every woman I know with a genuine and deep interest in STEM subjects has had to deal with some level of toxic/sexist/whatever stuff in their life, and they persevered and dealt with it because they weren't going to let it get in the way of their passion. I grew up in an era when kids interested in STEM were "nerds" and were harassed, denigrated, and had lower social status. This changed when Bill Gates made his fir…

Was Almost Live the source of the skit "Studs from Microsoft"? Microsoft used to ship that skit as a demonstration video on their Microsoft Video API MSDN CDs.

EDIT: Found a Raymond Chen blog entry confirming that the skit was indeed from Almost Live -- and it featured Bill Nye.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#306

Post by Thorentis »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #288
Thorentis wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men in general, are more aggressive and assertive when it comes to pay increases. If a male dominated industry has sustained pay increases year on year, this is probably why. Over time, female dominated professions have wages that do not increase at the same rate.

"Men in general, are more aggressive and assertive when it comes to pay increases." Isn't there a study that said women ask for pay raises at the same rate as men, but they are granted them less often?

The way you ask can be just as important as asking. Hence, my comment.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#307

Post by jelliclesfarm »

xzcat wrote: post #263
tathougies wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a man, I'll say I absolutely agree. I went to an all-boys high school, and teenage boys simply do better without girls around. Boys are more likely to engage in not traditionally masculine activities when girls are not around because there is no need to impress. Furthermore, girls often mature faster than boys, and this leads to unnecessary stress for both girls and boys at this stage. Furthermore, a lot of what d…

I really can't overstate how skeptical I am of all the supposed benefits of gender-segregated schooling when attendance of a gender-segregated school is so strongly correlated with socioeconomic class. I agree that all of your explanations fall well on my metaphorical ears. They seem right, and I can nod along while I read them. But I can't help but have a nagging suspicion that you'd get extremely similar results if…

Socioeconomic class wrt schools is directly related to people’s reproductive choices. What you say is absolutely correct.

How I see it is that the burden is on people who choose to bring children into this world. It’s an important decision. It is the basis of our evolution. The answer to the question re whether my progeny or kin can compete for the same limited resources. Economically lower classes of the population need cohesive and supportive communities that will act as the village..as it were..to collectively raise children. It is the strengthening secret sauce. Community and community support is everything here.

And of course..that’s wildly variable. There is no way to come up with standardized solutions. However, if we look at it as a resource issue..of resource allocation and resource density rather than a species encompassing human collective issue, we can find solutions for all.

It’s difficult to see this as a resource issue rather than a people issue, but smaller tight knit communities with minimal socio economic deltas work better than trying to homogenize large populations inefficiently.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#308

Post by Thorentis »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #251
Thorentis wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men in general, are more aggressive and assertive when it comes to pay increases. If a male dominated industry has sustained pay increases year on year, this is probably why. Over time, female dominated professions have wages that do not increase at the same rate.

And women are punished for demanding pay increases, so they can't win either way.

Source?

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#309

Post by softfalcon »

b0rsuk wrote: post #262

I think it's safe to say that board games are kinda STEM-related? I go to a local fantasy/SF club that's dominated by board gaming. There are lots of STEM students in there due to location, also plenty of programmers. And very few girls, and the only woman over 30 is mentally . No, there's no beer, no cigarettes, no posters with elves in g-strings, that sort of thing. It's almost as if girls and young women weren't r…

More than likely, the reason others avoid you is because once it became a distinct group huddled around a table nerding out about a technical board game, it became intimidating to join. Hell, I was raised playing D&D and other games, am male, have a computer science degree, and even I feel intimidated walking up to another table of gamers.

The same thing applies in reverse when you're with your mates at a pub. You want to go over and talk to a girl, but she's surrounded by her army of friends who are forming a social barricade that is intimidating to enter.

Those girls don't want to leave their comfortable social circle and risk entering this unknown board game world either. Here are a bunch of guys who all "know" this game and she has to enter into it not just from a social disadvantage, but also a gaming skill disadvantage. That's a tough ask for anyone, male or female. People do not like to enter social situations where they feel isolated.

Even if you were all a bunch of ripped, attractive, friendly, well dressed, wealthy, and obviously social gents, you'd still probably find women don't waltz right up to you and your friends playing a game of Scythe or some other complex strategy game.

If you want people to join your game, you have to go out of your way to make the game environment approachable to other people.

This means playing simpler games, inviting people over, and including other fun things to ease them into it. This means networking outside of just going to a board game cafe and hoping a girl will come through the door. You have to go out and find those wonderful people yourself.

NOTE: this can be really hard, cause the same way you and your friends are hiding out in this board game cafe, so are all those other like-minded individuals. They're also hiding away in basements, back alley cafes, etc, playing board games.

Remember, the reason you're into this hobby is because you've been a gaming fan for years. If we take away all your prior knowledge of games, you too would be anxious to jump right into the thick of it.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#310

Post by throwaway09851 »

WalterBright wrote: post #300
throwaway09851 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a woman, and this pervasive opinion that women are leaving STEM fields because of toxic behavior feels more sexist to me than anything else. It seems to me that if you have a genuine passion for STEM stuff, it takes a lot more than a bad environment to completely redirect your career path. Every woman I know with a genuine and deep interest in STEM subjects has had to deal with some level of toxic/sexist/whateve…

> Every woman I know with a genuine and deep interest in STEM subjects has had to deal with some level of toxic/sexist/whatever stuff in their life, and they persevered and dealt with it because they weren't going to let it get in the way of their passion. I grew up in an era when kids interested in STEM were "nerds" and were harassed, denigrated, and had lower social status. This changed when Bill Gates made his fir…

Yes! Thank you, I failed to touch on this in my comment at all, it's not a gender-specific phenomena to have to push back against negative social aspects in order to pursue the things that truly capture your interest. I agree wholeheartedly.
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