Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

theatlantic.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 630 posts

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#281

Post by pj_mukh »

y4mi wrote: post #274
pj_mukh wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As to the men being jerks/toxic etc argument. Are there times when that is true? Absolutely. But, men do not have a monopoly on being jerks, creating toxic work environments or harassing people" This is a red herring. If you ask women they won't say their bosses were "jerks" or "toxic" (though a lot of time they are), they'll say they made them "uncomfortable", "un-accommodating". It reminds me of a friend who got p…

> If you ask women they won't say their bosses were "jerks" or "toxic" Most women I know do exactly that though if you speak with them in a private setting? I'll have to take your word for the rest of your opinion, as I don't know your friend nor her colleagues. I'm a little surprised you expect them to be totally accommodating though. It's a professional setting after all. It's nice if you can create good friendship…

"Most women I know do exactly that though if you speak with them in a private setting?"

Proves my point even more then.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#283

Post by b0rsuk »

I know it's not a popular opinion, but consider a company analogy. People who leave because they're not competent have a tendency to badmouth the company. I'm not saying all of them do, and all that badmouth were incompetent. But there is a tendency to rationalize and lash out. What if women were calling those environments toxic because they had a hard time doing well in there?

There are absolutely toxic, hermetic, unpleasant environments. But we should at least permit considering the idea that people of different sexes have different abilities. I get sexist comments all the time (men can't distinguish colors, men can't multitask) and there are no white knights riding to my rescue.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#284

Post by grimjack00 »

foldr wrote: post #235
zarkov99 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, don't forget all the shitty careers, with long hours, danger, and significant health hazards. Not much equality of outcome on those either. Somehow no one is claiming sexism is the cause of disparity for those.

Actually, a lot of people are saying that sexism is the cause of disparity in those cases. It's a commonplace observation that sexism harms men as well as women. Historically, the professions you're alluding to have been closed to women by men . So for example, the reason that women couldn't serve in the military until relatively recently is not that women used their power and influence within society to get a pass o…

And now that women can serve in the military, it's time to update the Select Service law so it requires both men _and_ women to register on their 18th birthday.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#285

Post by koonsolo »

lgleason wrote: post #130

It all comes down to equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. When there is equality of opportunity women choose different fields...often (but not always) because of different interests. Equality of outcome forces people to do things that they may not have an interest in. And that is before you get into interests vs natural talent and how that does or does not affect ones success in a field. On a fundamental l…

I worked with a few women in software development. 2 of them separately told me they liked working in an all men team more than working with women. "Men are more honest and straightforward, women more jealous and backstabbing". Their words, not mine.

But since the whole upheaval of women in workplaces that flowed to Europe from US, I have the feeling that this sentiment has changed.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#286

Post by foldr »

grimjack00 wrote: post #284
foldr wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, a lot of people are saying that sexism is the cause of disparity in those cases. It's a commonplace observation that sexism harms men as well as women. Historically, the professions you're alluding to have been closed to women by men . So for example, the reason that women couldn't serve in the military until relatively recently is not that women used their power and influence within society to get a pass o…

And now that women can serve in the military, it's time to update the Select Service law so it requires both men _and_ women to register on their 18th birthday.

Sure. Do you think that there are many people who both (a) agree with the registration requirement in the first place and (b) think that it should apply to men only?

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#287

Post by zarkov99 »

foldr wrote: post #235
zarkov99 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, don't forget all the shitty careers, with long hours, danger, and significant health hazards. Not much equality of outcome on those either. Somehow no one is claiming sexism is the cause of disparity for those.

Actually, a lot of people are saying that sexism is the cause of disparity in those cases. It's a commonplace observation that sexism harms men as well as women. Historically, the professions you're alluding to have been closed to women by men . So for example, the reason that women couldn't serve in the military until relatively recently is not that women used their power and influence within society to get a pass o…

Really? Below is a list of the top 8 most dangerous jobs in the US. Which ones do you think would have equal gender representation if there was no sexism?

1 - Logging workers

2 - Fishers and fishing workers

3 - Aircraft pilots and flight engineers

4 - Roofers

5 - Refuse and recyclable material collectors

6 - Structural iron and steel workers

7 - Truck drivers

8 - Farmers, ranchers and agricultural managers

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#288

Post by SolaceQuantum »

Thorentis wrote: post #212
TulliusCicero wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Males and females have different preferences on average, and do from birth[1]. This is not a bad thing. Sure, but it seems more than a little convenient that the male-chosen professions seem to generally pay significantly more, on average, than the female-chosen ones. Haven't there been studies that showed that women moving into a profession was actually associated with pay dropping?

Men in general, are more aggressive and assertive when it comes to pay increases. If a male dominated industry has sustained pay increases year on year, this is probably why. Over time, female dominated professions have wages that do not increase at the same rate.

"Men in general, are more aggressive and assertive when it comes to pay increases."

Isn't there a study that said women ask for pay raises at the same rate as men, but they are granted them less often?

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#289

Post by catalogia »

bluGill wrote: post #134
jakelazaroff wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true. We know from history that a much larger percentage of programmers in the US were women before it became a lucrative career. > Between 30 and 50 percent of programmers were women in the 1950s, and it was seen as a natural career for them, as evidenced by a 1967 Cosmopolitan feature about “Computer Girls.” [1] [1] https://timeline.com/women-pioneered-computer-programming-th...

In the 1950s male culture saw computer as a boring career worth of only women. Note literally computer, sitting down with a piece of paper and calculating some figure by hand - a human spreadsheet if it were. Computer morphed into computer programmer with the advent of electronic computers, and soon afterwards men got involved. Feminists made big advances at the same time and so it is hard to separate which factor (o…

AFAICT men started to get involved when men started to notice that you could hit the jackpot and become a billionaire, or at least have a decent shot at becoming a millionaire.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#290

Post by mixmastamyk »

pm90 wrote: post #200
mixmastamyk wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In school way back in olden times, most of the girls in my class would say "oh, I hate computers," when the subject was brought up. Odd, because I loved them. I don't hear this anymore from the grown-up-on-iPad generation.

> In school way back in olden times, most of the girls in my class would say "oh, I hate computers," I'm pretty sure most of the boys said that too.

Never heard that once from a boy, but perhaps ~ten times over the decade from girls.
Post reply on HN