The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#261

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 12, 2019, 9:19 PM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #151

throwaway8548 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the kind of differences in performance and achievement that would be explained by psychological and physiological differences between men and women That's a bit of circular reasoning though. - Look how men and women behave differently! - But why do they behave differently? - Because they're different. - How do you know that? - Because they behave differently. It's not logically consistent and doesn't answer anythin…

Throwaway commenter, despite being downvoted, you're absolutely right! I'm a woman. I AM A WOMAN IN STEM. You know what makes my blood pressure rise? People in real life and in this thread who tell me that I'm naturally not suited to it, that I like people more than things. Go away! Shut the f(*& up! I want to sit here and deal with my code and not have people tell me that I either don't know what I like or I'm not a…

[deleted]

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#262

Post by b0rsuk » Thu, Dec 12, 2019, 9:20 PM UTC

I think it's safe to say that board games are kinda STEM-related? I go to a local fantasy/SF club that's dominated by board gaming. There are lots of STEM students in there due to location, also plenty of programmers. And very few girls, and the only woman over 30 is mentally .

No, there's no beer, no cigarettes, no posters with elves in g-strings, that sort of thing. It's almost as if girls and young women weren't really interested in that. The few that do occasionally show up gravitate towards LARPs, pen&paper RPG games, and RPG-ish board games like Arkham Horror. If anything, I think those activities are more associated with toxic and sexist behavior and subtexts. I mean those are the people that spend lots of time in the same company, often in pubs or cellars, as opposed to board games where there are always people coming and going.

I don't know why, but very few young women come to us to play heavier or more competitive board games and we have several games going at any given time. And because board game renaissance is pretty recent in my country, there's absolutely no possibility it's traditionally male.

I'm for equal opportunities, but I think differences between sexes are not limited to physical. It's hard to pinpoint the tendencies, but they seem to be there. I mean look at smaller guys - they often have confidence issues and the ones I know are gym rats. They are also more afraid to go out after dark. Would it be crazy to think that people who evolved having about 20% less muscle mass also got some related mental differences?

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#263

Post by xzcat » Thu, Dec 12, 2019, 9:21 PM UTC

tathougies wrote: post #19

jelliclesfarm wrote: post #9

This! I have said this so many times and all my girl friends hate me for it! I also believe in gender segregated schools(after HS and at university level). I am not advocating gender segregation but just gender segregated education. This is only a BS theory of mine..and so I am trying to work it into my hobby fiction writing. Please allow me to test it here for opinions. I think that in formative years, children shou…

As a man, I'll say I absolutely agree. I went to an all-boys high school, and teenage boys simply do better without girls around. Boys are more likely to engage in not traditionally masculine activities when girls are not around because there is no need to impress. Furthermore, girls often mature faster than boys, and this leads to unnecessary stress for both girls and boys at this stage. Furthermore, a lot of what d…

I really can't overstate how skeptical I am of all the supposed benefits of gender-segregated schooling when attendance of a gender-segregated school is so strongly correlated with socioeconomic class.

I agree that all of your explanations fall well on my metaphorical ears. They seem right, and I can nod along while I read them.

But I can't help but have a nagging suspicion that you'd get extremely similar results if you just tossed a random sample of kids into a school after filtering for household income > $XXX,XXX/yr.

I'd also argue that even if you compared gender segregated schools vs a mixed-gender private school of the same price, you'd still be left with a confounding variable of "whose parents clearly valued education enough that they either specifically picked, or tolerated (depending on their views on this matter) a gender segregated school.

Remember that parental involvement is a very powerful predictor of academic success (though I'll admit I don't know if it trumps the predictive power of just socioeconomic class).

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#264

Post by Doingmything123 » Thu, Dec 12, 2019, 9:21 PM UTC

throwaway8459 wrote: post #233

Doingmything123 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think the issue is biological and not social? Isn't this the nature vs nurture debate?

Like all things, it's not a black and white split between nature vs nurture, it's both.

I don't disagree but I think that in the average case nurture has a much larger affect on our lives that nature.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#265

Post by squidsurfer » Thu, Dec 12, 2019, 9:22 PM UTC

zarkov99 wrote: post #27

Two possible explanations: A) Biology is a real thing and genders have differences that extend beyond their gonads. B) Nope. It is all sexism, always, and these Scandinavian women are just traversing an uncanny valley of internalized misogyny.

Dont be a bigot! Of course its B!

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#266

Post by stjohnswarts » Thu, Dec 12, 2019, 9:22 PM UTC

lgleason wrote: post #130

It all comes down to equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. When there is equality of opportunity women choose different fields...often (but not always) because of different interests. Equality of outcome forces people to do things that they may not have an interest in. And that is before you get into interests vs natural talent and how that does or does not affect ones success in a field. On a fundamental l…

I've seen pretty much both sexes being equally abrasive at work, it's a pretty co-equal trait of the two (plus) sexes.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#267

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 12, 2019, 9:22 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#268

Post by foldr » Thu, Dec 12, 2019, 9:23 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #259

foldr wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No? Where do I say that?

It's implied by saying that those other fields made serious efforts to combat sexism back then, but CS hasn't made an equivalent effort now. What other reason would there be for such a discrepancy, other than being motivated by sexism?

You've made this point elsewhere in the thread, but it doesn't really make any sense. See the responses to your other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21775710

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#269

Post by bluGill » Thu, Dec 12, 2019, 9:24 PM UTC

calibas wrote: post #191

bluGill wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which differences. There is the genitalia that nobody argues with. Likewise testosterone differences. Pretty much everything else isn't as clear cut. We know that more men than women go into STEM - but we don't know if it is because men fundamentally like those jobs better, or if it is because our culture makes it less acceptable for women to go into STEM. Often culture things are subtle and people will say things th…

I was suggesting the correlation is deeper than just "circular reasoning", and I assume you agree since you mention two potential causations.

I tend to believe it is so. However I'm honest enough to admit it is a belief that might be wrong. I'm also honest enough to admit in most cases the difference (whatever it is) isn't significant to the situation at hand.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#270

Post by foldr » Thu, Dec 12, 2019, 9:24 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #254

foldr wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>this implies that male doctors and lawyers in the 60's and 70's were less sexist than male engineers of today. I don't see how it implies this. The more relevant question is whether STEM has higher levels of sexism than other similarly attractive fields.

How could it not imply it? That's when women started entering those fields en masse and really increasing their numbers. Going by the "the problem is men being sexist" reasoning, that they were able to do this successfully implies that the lawyers and doctors in charge then were less sexist than engineers today.

It does not imply this, because it's likely to be relative rather than absolute levels of sexism that are relevant.