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The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

theatlantic.com

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Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#191

Post by calibas »

bluGill wrote: post #96
calibas wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are observable differences not the basis of empirical science?

Which differences. There is the genitalia that nobody argues with. Likewise testosterone differences. Pretty much everything else isn't as clear cut. We know that more men than women go into STEM - but we don't know if it is because men fundamentally like those jobs better, or if it is because our culture makes it less acceptable for women to go into STEM. Often culture things are subtle and people will say things th…

I was suggesting the correlation is deeper than just "circular reasoning", and I assume you agree since you mention two potential causations.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#192

Post by bluGill »

throwaway8548 wrote: post #114
oerpli wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how would you argue the other side? - Women and men are equal! - But they behave differently - Because women are discriminated against - How do you know that? - Because they behave differently. What now?

- Because women are discriminated against - How do you know that? - Because women told us!!

That too doesn't make it so. It might be so, and in some cases it is. However I've also observed people claim discrimination when there wasn't.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#193

Post by jimbokun »

zmmmmm wrote: post #169
Reedx wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask women and you'll find that most aren't interested in programming a computer all day. Which one could argue is a sane choice. If anything it's more sane. Stop trying to make them feel like something is wrong if they don't have this inclination. Males and females have different preferences on average, some as early as birth[1]. This is not a bad thing. For the ones that want to program all day, obviously they shoul…

> Ask women and you'll find that most aren't interested in programming a computer all day I think this though itself is an artefact of a male dominated profession. The fact that working with software is "programming a computer all day" reflects a male preference and value system, and many people open acknowledge that it's quite harmful and often creates quite dysfunctional teams. We need better requirements, better c…

If I understand you correctly, people who like working alone on challenging tasks are inherently deficient and we need to drive them out of the workplace to make others more comfortable?

Isn't there a place for people good at thinking deeply about difficult problems on their own and coming up with effective solutions?

Yes, everyone needs to be able to communicate well to be part of an effective team. But there is also a role for deep thinking and introspection.

By the way, introverted women exist, too.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#194

Post by gamesbrainiac »

I think the truth of the matter is that you cannot dictate what people feel passionate about or what they need to do. For example, people in Algeria or from my region of South Asia study the sciences because it is a way to better incomes in the future.

Simply giving people all the opportunity in the world will not guarantee that they will take up that opportunity. Just because you offer someone a carrot does not mean that that person will bite.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#195

Post by zarkov99 »

jelliclesfarm wrote: post #101
zarkov99 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am with you. I was just triggered by your unflattering, though probably accurate enough, characterization of the male psyche.

I didn’t mean to paint all men like so..I was giving an example of one instance in my own life experience..one of many that has shaped my opinion re gender segregation in higher education and work place. It was the most recent example that explained my own motivation to evangelize gender segregation.

Sure. I don't understand the competition argument though. In my HS and College years it did not matter if the top student was a man or a women, it just mattered if it was you or someone else. And as far as I recall men and women were fairly evenly matched. Why do you think they should compete separately?

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#196

Post by james-mcelwain »

malandrew wrote: post #61
blunte wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the point. Freedom to direct your energies toward your personal passion _without artificial restraints_ is equality.

> _without artificial restraints_ What constitutes an artificial restraint? For classical liberals, that means being free from the constraint imposed by other individuals. Today the definition of "restraints" is being expanded beyond the artificial to the point where everything is being declared a "human right" without any consideration for the fact that some of those things can only be provided by taking from someon…

Taxation isn't bondage.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#197

Post by jayd16 »

jimbokun wrote: post #182
izzydata wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like informing everyone that these options exist is part of creating a more equal opportunity. If two people didn't have the same information for available options then there wasn't an equal opportunity.

I'm not following you. Girls don't know that there's such a thing as programming or Computer Science degrees?

It's about internalizing the idea that it's a feasible choice you give actual thought to.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#198

Post by datashow »

pj_mukh wrote: post #35

Coming from one of these countries to America, the answer seems obvious. STEM jobs have a HUGE differential in stability and status in those countries, so women put up up with much more patriarchal BS at the workplace to hold on to them. My sister was a STEM worker in India. When she moved to America, she looked around to see writers with relatively safe, high-status job and switched out immediately. Yes, women in Am…

I can't believe this comment get voted up.

> women in America are "organically" picking non-STEM jobs, but that is because the jobs suck, the environments suck and people are assholes at these jobs

Very general assessment without any supporting evidence.

Your sister is not sufficient evidence to make this kind of assessment. Neither is "Ask Women".

By the way, I will be very surprised to hear women in general are treated better in India than in America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_inequality_in_India

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#199

Post by tenpies »

izzydata wrote: post #174
jayd16 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Implicit bias also guides interests and choice. Many women I meet today simply did not consider the possibility of an engineering career, not that they were forced out of it. We look to outcome equality to gain some kind of insight into this.

It sounds like informing everyone that these options exist is part of creating a more equal opportunity. If two people didn't have the same information for available options then there wasn't an equal opportunity.

I just hate that the emphasis seems to be strictly based on careers with high income. There is no focus spreading equality or equity or informing everyone when the career is about social good, life satisfaction, or blunt quality of life.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#200

Post by pm90 »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #180
jayd16 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Implicit bias also guides interests and choice. Many women I meet today simply did not consider the possibility of an engineering career, not that they were forced out of it. We look to outcome equality to gain some kind of insight into this.

In school way back in olden times, most of the girls in my class would say "oh, I hate computers," when the subject was brought up. Odd, because I loved them. I don't hear this anymore from the grown-up-on-iPad generation.

> In school way back in olden times, most of the girls in my class would say "oh, I hate computers,"

I'm pretty sure most of the boys said that too.

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