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We Only Hire the Trendiest (2016)

danluu.com

271–280 of 420 posts

Re: We Only Hire the Trendiest (2016)

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may enjoy a tweet of Dan's, where he says his open source code has been completely irrelevant in most of his interviews: https://twitter.com/danluu/status/806222862663053312 . Lest you think he's just a superstar who doesn't care about interviews, he says he's quite bad at them https://twitter.com/danluu/status/1058029337923014656

From later in that second twitter thread: > I was at a party tonight and someone asked me what my favorite book was. Couldn't answer. They relaxed the constraint and asked about "a good book". Couldn't answer. They relaxed the constraint again and asked me about "any book, good or bad". Couldn't answer. From his blog, Dan is obviously a great engineer. I'd love to say as an interviewer I'd recognize this and say "str…

The attempts at making the problem easier completely miss the point of what makes it hard (for some people) to answer this kind of question. I do not associate books I read with the concept of a book, so there are no associations to follow so this kind of open question has a high chance of causing my mind to go completely blank.

As somebody in that twitter thread said:

> Yep, these are terrible questions, because they imply you are supposed to instantly trawl through your entire memory of years of work, and rank all the bugs (or whatever) and then pick the ONE TRUE EXAMPLE that will make you look good...

I find it much easier to talk about a reasonably scoped a topic where I have strong links between the facts I know about it.

Re: We Only Hire the Trendiest (2016)

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be more charitable to the commenter's point, that's not what's being asserted as discriminatory. They're making the claim that it's implicitly discriminatory to penalize people who don't spend time on programming outside of work, because that reasonably penalizes people who are older (i.e. more likely to have a family). They are not making the claim that choosing to hire someone better than someone else is discrim…

Why is it discriminatory? All else equal, isn't it clearly better to hire someone with no responsibilities outside of work, than someone who has to be out of the office at 5pm every day to deal with their kids?

> All else equal, isn't it clearly better to hire someone with no responsibilities outside of work, than someone who has to be out of the office at 5pm every day to deal with their kids?

No it isn't clearly better. Note, I'm single but proposing that someone that lives code as being better than someone that stops to smell the roses of life is a bit too much.

You're also discriminating for people that may be horrible for the team. I bet that person with kids is likely better at conflict resolution than the programmer that never goes out to socialize.

That is what you're discriminating for/against. I'm learning a hobby on how to build some rather completely different things. Not only is it refreshing to think of computers as "just another goddamn tool" but to not need the things at all.

It is letting me escape getting into a rut in software only. But guess what, it means I'm not contributing to open source because I'd rather be doing something, anything else.

Working outside of work is mostly free training for your company. Nice for them, bad for you later on in life. I'd rather meet and make friends as I am growing older. Relationships are the thing I regret most for not paying better attention in life. I don't think as a society we should keep encouraging people to act like mindless drones.

Re: We Only Hire the Trendiest (2016)

#273
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toxic individuals like you should really find some other industry to pollute.

So we have a personal attack, an unsubstantiated assumption, and zero substantive argument. And I'm the toxic individual? Perhaps you should find a different message board to pollute.

I should not have made a personal attack. But I really would encourage you to consider what others have written and think about why your take on hiring is not healthy and may even be actively discriminatory against a protected class.

Re: We Only Hire the Trendiest (2016)

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about denying you employment. It's about hiring someone who can ship software. If someone has publicly shipped software and you can see that, they make for a good candidate. It seems reasonable to me that people who really love writing software and do it a lot would get jobs and be successful in the industry. I wouldn't judge them on their work/life balance, some people really do enjoy programming that much.

If you can't glean that devs with 15+ years of experience on their resume know how to ship software, then maybe the real problem is your ability to evaluate talent.

I am one of those with 15+ years of experience and have shipped many different projects. I've also interviewed many people with impressive resumes only to realize that resumes don't translate to performance. The ability to ship quality software has more to do with personality than it does resumes. I see nothing wrong with counting open source contributions as a big plus. I wouldn't use the lack of it as a hard filter though.

Re: We Only Hire the Trendiest (2016)

#275
This was a great read and I've seen this kind of thing first-hand at a few companies I've worked/interviewed at.

> Wear a suit and tie to an interview

That's a personal test of mine. I have never showed up to an interview without a tie. My dad was a small business owner in a manufacturing sector -- he was the hiring manager -- everything I learned about job interviewing I learned from him and the first thing on his list -- being a previous generation in an industry outside of software development -- was "you wear a tie". There were various reasons given for this. Maybe its the area that I live in, but I've never had difficulty explaining away the tie whereas I know of a few folks in the area who, despite the environment being stricly "dress-down", still expect interviewee's to wear a tie[0].

It's easy to write off with a little transparency and careful humor: "Sorry for being over-dressed. My dad was a business owner and somewhat beat into my head that dressing up for an interview communicates that you want the job. Plus, I love Jerry Garcia ties and have far too many of them for how few opportunities there actually are to wear a suit." Nobody wants to be judged negatively about their appearance, but we tend to make sweeping judgements on that single variable alone -- by adding a little additional information, you eliminate the rabbit-hole of "is this guy going to be a rigid pain-in-the-ass about everything because he insists on over-dressing for an interview?" with "he's actively trying to make a good impression"

Another thing that tends to get lost in the whole "are they a good culture fit" is "is your culture all that great in the first place?" When interviewing people, shortly after determining that a candidate might actually be able to do the job, we tend to fall right into "Will I actually want to work with this person day-to-day". Someone who doesn't fit perfectly into that mold will cause anxiety. But what if the thing that "didn't fit with my teams' culture" is something that your team would benefit from? At a recent job, I was told that the ultimate decision for every employee being hired fell to the founders of the company in consultation with the people who interviewed the developer[1]. The question we're asked is "How will this person make us better?" It sounds fluffy, but it changes how you think about a candidate -- it says "I'm hiring not just to fill a need, but to bring this individual, along with their life experiences, into a team with the goal of all of us improving."

As far as the "personal test of mine" is concerned, I'm perfectly OK with being passed on for a job where my tie and explanation didn't satisfy the interviewer that I was a good fit. Chances are one of two things really happened (1) I wasn't right for the job for a lot of other reasons, but that's the one that was presented (if any were, at all) or (2) a place that would judge me negatively on something so unimportant is a company I'm going to have a difficult time understanding and succeeding in.

[0] This is stupid bit it happens. It's unlikely to disqualify someone, outright, but at these shops, a tie is a plus.

[1] And after a year of being there, I did a few solo interviews and can confirm that "it's true!"

Re: We Only Hire the Trendiest (2016)

#276
post #222

Last night on Twitter, someone said "Nearly every entrepreneur I talk so says hiring is their biggest challenge. The world is starving for competent people with a strong work-ethic." This is of course false. The world is not starving for competent people. It's starving for high-status resumes. If those resumes are attached to people who are competent or hard workers, that's a bonus. The high-status resumes without th…

I'll be honest, it's pretty hilarious to read someone talking about taking down the rich when their company was acquired for $13 million in cash, give or take.

> $13 million

That's not VC-rich, it's actually just on the level of "fuck you" money.

Re: We Only Hire the Trendiest (2016)

#277
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were also a few disparaging comments about the South in general Silicon Valley is all about equality and opportunity. Except when it isn't. Certain types of bigotry are not only tolerated, they're celebrated.

James Hetfield talked about that as a reason he left. "I kind of got sick of the Bay Area, the attitudes of the people there, a little bit. They talk about how diverse they are, and things like that, and it's fine if you're diverse like them. But showing up with a deer on the bumper doesn't fly in Marin County. My form of eating organic doesn't vibe with theirs." https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/metallica-james-hetf…

1) I really wouldn't quote James Hetfield as a bastion of "tolerance", thanks.

2) Lots of old Metallica metal fans will regale you at length about how Metallica sold out to Redneck America(tm) in return for lots and lots of cash. So, lots of this kind of stuff is suspect as to whether it is genuine vs planned marketing.

3) "But showing up with a deer on the bumper doesn't fly in Marin County."

Erm, actually James I know quite a few people in Marin that are totally fine with a deer on the hood. Somehow I never saw you hanging out with any of us.

But, then, none of us are multimillionaires who are worthy of running around in Mr. Hetfield's social circles.

Re: We Only Hire the Trendiest (2016)

#278
post #45

One frustration I've had recently is the number of companies encouraging or requiring code in the public sphere. They want to see open-source contributions or an active and impressive personal github page. If your employer is protective of their IP ( mine is ) and/or you are not willing to spend evenings and and weekends on pet projects, you are out of the running. Also >But if you think programmers aren't elitist, t…

I'll be honest: if you have one person who spends 8 hours a day practicing a talent, and another who spends 10 or 12 hours a day practicing their talent, which is going to be better at that skill? Having lots of open source code to read demonstrates in public the prospect's talent for writing code, has examples of their collaboration with others, etc, but also simply means they spend more time writing code and gettin…

But writing code is only a small part of a software engineer's job (at least that's true everywhere I've worked), so selecting people who have opted to dedicate their lives to only that portion might be a worse idea than hiring better-rounded candidates, when it comes to building real software systems that need to be liked by users.

Re: We Only Hire the Trendiest (2016)

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may enjoy a tweet of Dan's, where he says his open source code has been completely irrelevant in most of his interviews: https://twitter.com/danluu/status/806222862663053312 . Lest you think he's just a superstar who doesn't care about interviews, he says he's quite bad at them https://twitter.com/danluu/status/1058029337923014656

From later in that second twitter thread: > I was at a party tonight and someone asked me what my favorite book was. Couldn't answer. They relaxed the constraint and asked about "a good book". Couldn't answer. They relaxed the constraint again and asked me about "any book, good or bad". Couldn't answer. From his blog, Dan is obviously a great engineer. I'd love to say as an interviewer I'd recognize this and say "str…

The broader principle I'm seeing is, when it comes to competence, a small company is probably best off looking for reasons to accept, not reasons to reject. Small companies aren't subject to the same corruption-control constraints that large companies are, so they have more flexibility in onboarding someone who doesn't fit in one of the usual boxes but nevertheless can probably provide more than enough value to the business.

(Incidentally, the main reasons I'd reject an engineer candidate who did seem individually competent and motivated enough relate to trust and team collaboration.)

Re: We Only Hire the Trendiest (2016)

#280
post #275

This was a great read and I've seen this kind of thing first-hand at a few companies I've worked/interviewed at. > Wear a suit and tie to an interview That's a personal test of mine. I have never showed up to an interview without a tie. My dad was a small business owner in a manufacturing sector -- he was the hiring manager -- everything I learned about job interviewing I learned from him and the first thing on his l…

I understand that 'culture' is more important, the smaller the group. You have to get along with everybody in the group, or conflicts quickly take valuable time that should be moving the project forward.

But this often devolves into discrimination. Everybody from the same socioeconomic slot means cliques, doesn't it? How can it not?

We used to have something called 'professionalism', where you worked with somebody in a role because, they had that responsibility and you had yours. Not because you could hang out with them.

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