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We Just Got a Rare Look at US National Security Surveillance

nytimes.com

71–80 of 138 posts

Re: We Just Got a Rare Look at US National Security Surveillance

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Witness Martha Stewart. Now, she’s not your average citizen, but you can see how they railroaded her. Yup, they didn’t get her on FTC violations, nope, they got her for “lying”. If she’s not guilty of a crime how the hell do you get people for “lying”. The Martha Stewart case is a prime example of why you should never talk to investigators. Never help any investigator. Ever. I'm pretty sure you can find something t…

>I've read criminal defense lawyers advise people that they first contact a good lawyer before contacting the police (and have them present during any communication) if their spouse is missing. This is pretty poor advice. A prosecutor will absolutely subpoena your phone records and use the fact that you called a lawyer first to convince a jury you're guilty. But you're right - in most cases, talk to investigators as…

No, it isn't, it is the only sane advice you will get. We are turning into a country where your first action should always be, stay quiet and call a lawyer first.

1. Police and prosecutor will pull your records anyway, they generally look at spouse and people close to you first regardless of your innocence. 2. If this is the only evidence they have on your guilt, then you're likely to win on appeal if the jury is insane enough to find your guilt based on zero evidence.

Re: We Just Got a Rare Look at US National Security Surveillance

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a crime to lie to federal agents in the course of a criminal investigation. You can avoid committing that crime by not lying to agents. Note that this is not the same as the "if you're honest, you have nothing to hide anyway" argument in favor of mass surveillance. This is about answering a specific set of questions from a member of law enforcement in the course of a specific investigation. You always have the…

FYI, it's also a crime to lie to the FISA court and to lie under oath to Congress. The FBI did both, as did other members of the security state, most notably John Brennan and Jim Clapper. If we are a nation of laws not men then those in power need to be held accountable for their crimes too.

I agree that people in power should be held to the standards of the law.

Re: We Just Got a Rare Look at US National Security Surveillance

#73
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By cheating, you're referring to the 17 'unbiased' errors, 100% of which somehow simultaneously helped the Hillary campaign and pushed a sham special council investigation and impeachment on the people, all the while the media was pinky swearing there was more evidence than there actually was, right?

The orange man got caught attempting to use the powers of his office to cheat in the upcoming election. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/12/10/case-impe...

Biden engaged in blatant corruption. Investigating him is not "cheating".

Re: We Just Got a Rare Look at US National Security Surveillance

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said anything like "the Deep State perp-walked to Guantanamo and The Hague", nor did anyone on this discussion. Maybe there is a right-win conspiracy theory about that, but it has nothing to do with the discussion here. FBI / DOJ violation of the protocol in secret courts is really a serious matter in a democratic society.

How is your insistence that “something even worse will be revealed” not a conspiracy theory? It’s almost literally the definition!

It was implied by the linked Attorney statement, not OP's speculation.

Re: We Just Got a Rare Look at US National Security Surveillance

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One problem with that line of thought is that law is so complex that just about anybody could easily be tripped up by an agent educated on the nuances of the law. While most agents are honest, truth-seeking individuals, clearly some harbor political bias and/or are being used for ideological ends. “Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime” - Lavrentiy Beria, Chief of Police under Stalin A system that is highly sec…

> One has only to see that FISA has only turned down 85 out of 40k requests to understand this is a rubber-stamp process. I don't think that logic follows? That statistic could just mean that they're actually doing most things legally and properly, which is the outcome you'd want, right? I'd be worried if a significant percentage of their requests were turned down. Also, as a comparison point: apparently several fede…

>I don't think that logic follows? That statistic could just mean that they're actually doing most things legally and properly, which is the outcome you'd want, right? I'd be worried if a significant percentage of their requests were turned down.

I think you're correct that the logic employed doesn't follow. It is useless to look at the statistics alone and conclude one way or the other that FISA is or is not a rubber stamp. However, I think you are doing a category error: Criminal court proceedings are adversarial, FISA court is not.

Because there is no defense, public oversight, or judicial review. FISA cases are sealed, and secret. There is no risk of jury nullification or new caselaw because these cases are not argued by an adversary. Outside entities subpoenad in this fashion are barred from speaking of it (Under 99% conviction federal criminal statutes) Nobody is risking re-election here and the judges are appointed. The adversary is a strawman in FISA. The public is functionally shut out as well. It was designed for this purpose, the lack of accountability is a critical feature.

In order to employ the statistics properly you require context. In my high school sociology class the instructor posed this statistical fallacy: Drownings and grass growth rates are positively correlated. A naive observer born and living on Mars might ban grass to prevent drownings. This missing the mark because correlation != causation, and the true correlation is more people swim in the summer when grass grows faster. There is not swimming on mars.

>Also, as a comparison point: apparently several federal judicial districts have a 100% conviction rate [...] Do you see these statistics as implying the whole thing is just a rubber-stamp process altogether?

Comparing to high criminal conviction rates (often in the high 90%), the prosecutors and attornies general use the conviction statistics for their re-election campaigns. Cases which would result in "Jury Nullification" or some other modification of caselaw or jurisprudence are abandoned, keeping the rates artificially high. Refer to "Stingray" caselaw. This effect is partially caused by the adversarial court system being helmed by elected officials.

This is to say, that the regular criminal courts are an adversarial public system in which the accused get lawyers. Those lawyers sometimes win in court, other times the AG or prosecutor drops the charges when it looks like they will lose due to the legal arguments employed by the adversary. Dropped or unajudicated charges aren't counted in the statistics. Losing cases are not tried.

In order to maintain your claim here, there is some missing data:

1: Who is the adversary in FISA?

2: When does the public review the court proceedings?

Given the answers to 1 and 2 being "Nobody" and "Never", the statistics tell a much different tale than the criminal conviction statistics. Now the logic may follow.

Re: We Just Got a Rare Look at US National Security Surveillance

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Witness Martha Stewart. Now, she’s not your average citizen, but you can see how they railroaded her. Yup, they didn’t get her on FTC violations, nope, they got her for “lying”. If she’s not guilty of a crime how the hell do you get people for “lying”. The Martha Stewart case is a prime example of why you should never talk to investigators. Never help any investigator. Ever. I'm pretty sure you can find something t…

>I've read criminal defense lawyers advise people that they first contact a good lawyer before contacting the police (and have them present during any communication) if their spouse is missing. This is pretty poor advice. A prosecutor will absolutely subpoena your phone records and use the fact that you called a lawyer first to convince a jury you're guilty. But you're right - in most cases, talk to investigators as…

> use the fact that you called a lawyer first to convince a jury you're guilty

Would that even be admissible?

Re: We Just Got a Rare Look at US National Security Surveillance

#78
post #34

I searched this article on reddit to see how the usual left leaning subreddits are reacting to it and was surprised to see it is nowhere to be found. Truly both sides are living in their own echo chambers

So far, the article was posted in 37 different subs. The highest upvotes: /r/politics - 155 karma /r/libertarian - 49 karma /r/conservative - 34 karma I'm not trying to make any case for any side here. Just providing some numbers.

So what are those results, normalized for active users?

Re: We Just Got a Rare Look at US National Security Surveillance

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a crime to lie to federal agents in the course of a criminal investigation. You can avoid committing that crime by not lying to agents. Note that this is not the same as the "if you're honest, you have nothing to hide anyway" argument in favor of mass surveillance. This is about answering a specific set of questions from a member of law enforcement in the course of a specific investigation. You always have the…

Why would anyone talk to the FBI? They don't record interrogations, but rather rely upon the memory of the investigator who has up to 3 months to record what was said. And if his memory doesn't match what you claim you said, you are automatically lying and guilty. It's such an obvious route of official abuse of power, I'm not for getting rid of the FBI and starting over. How could you trust anyone who was willing to…

It doesn't matter if agents record your conversation. At trial, the recording will only be trusted to the extent that the agent's testimony as to its provenance is trusted.

If your testimony is important to the trial, you'll be asked to deliver it again in person, or in a deposition; either way you will have an opportunity to prep with your counsel.

In theory, a recording could be detrimental to you, as either the prosecution or defense would have a chance to play up tiny inconsistencies between your first recording and your live testimony/deposition. Without the recording, the best they can do is have the agent testify "that's not what he/she said the first time." Which doesn't really matter.

If you get prosecuted for lying to the agent, again, you would have a chance to testify at trial, and for your counsel to try to impeach the agent in front of the jury.

Re: We Just Got a Rare Look at US National Security Surveillance

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a crime to lie to federal agents in the course of a criminal investigation. You can avoid committing that crime by not lying to agents. Note that this is not the same as the "if you're honest, you have nothing to hide anyway" argument in favor of mass surveillance. This is about answering a specific set of questions from a member of law enforcement in the course of a specific investigation. You always have the…

You can avoid committing that crime by refusing to speak to agents.

True.
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