Don't Make Me Steal • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't Make Me Steal

#61

Post by anatoli » Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 9:52 PM UTC

eli wrote: post #52

anatoli wrote: post #35

The whole "languages" section sounds like it was written by somebody with no understanding of how dubbing is produced, who pays for it, and the issues that arise with the rights to these different versions of a film. Often it gets even more complicated with TV Shows. Convenience? Now you're getting completely unreasonable. If you can't filter by all metadata you're going to "steal"? Come on...

I'm guessing the point they were trying to get at was, you should be able to download and share subtitle files -- which are only useful to people who already have the movie -- without fear of prosecution.

Here's the relevant bit from the "manifesto":

"I have access to the audio in every language that has been produced."

Even the subtitle issue is complicated. Are these fan-made subtitles? Otherwise, again, you're entering a minefield and the chances of something like that ever happening within a unified interface — as requested — are slim.

Something like that would require a fundamental change to how films and especially TV Shows are distributed in other countries. Not to mention the technical issues that will occur due to certain countries getting a slightly modified (whether censored or extended or just modified) version of the original.

You're far more likely to get somewhere if what you're asking is at least somewhat reasonable.

Re: Don't Make Me Steal

#62

Post by meatsock » Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 9:54 PM UTC

caillou wrote: post #8

jefe78 wrote: post #2

Cool project but I'd rather not have to sign with Facebook/Twitter. Can you implement an alternative please?

We considered many different authentications and chose Facebook and Twitter because they make it really easy to show avatars of the people who sign. What alternatives would you suggest?

fingerd

Re: Don't Make Me Steal

#63

Post by itg » Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 9:56 PM UTC

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #22

If I could watch content on Hulu, Netflix or other in Linux and I didn't want to throw myself in front of the lunatic-driven University bus, I'd be happy. TPB -> "The Italian Job" + 3 hours = me happy. There is NO legal alternative for me. No, I'm not walking 30 miles to Best Buy to waste $30 on a DVD that won't play in my computer that doesn't have a DVD drive. And I don't consider running Win7 in a VM to be reasona…

"There is NO legal alternative for me."

Yes there is. You choose not to use them because they are inconvenient. You are not entitled to dl a copy of the movie instead.

Re: Don't Make Me Steal

#64

Post by gaius » Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 9:56 PM UTC

cmars232 wrote: post #54

rubidium wrote: post #10

I really don't like the "don't make me steal" attitude. It undermines a good society. The creators of this campaign decided that "Purchase should not exceed the cinema price." Really? What if we did that for, say, organic bread. "I won't buy organic bread unless it's x3 or less than the cost of the generic white bread. If it is more expensive, I'm entitled to steal it." Sorry folks, you're entitled to not buy it, not…

Yeah, but I would download a loaf of organic bread if I could. And I'd copy that loaf whenever I needed more for a sandwich, and I'd upload that bread pattern to all my friends, and give away free slices to any hungry people I came across. Post-scarcity is funny that way.

Because we're post-wheat-scarcity?

No seriously - we are not post-movie-scarcity because making a blockbuster costs a vast amount of money - and much of that is people's salaries, people not unlike you - and it's a risky business (e.g. Kevin Costner might be involved) and if that cost is not recouped... Well the industry is going to go only for safe bets (sequels/remakes).

It's like another thread on here at the moment, about it taking 5 minutes to upload a favicon. Sure, but that's not how much time it takes to get from scratch to actual deliverable.

Re: Don't Make Me Steal

#65

Post by kijinbear » Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 9:57 PM UTC

citricsquid wrote: post #51

rubidium wrote: post #10

I really don't like the "don't make me steal" attitude. It undermines a good society. The creators of this campaign decided that "Purchase should not exceed the cinema price." Really? What if we did that for, say, organic bread. "I won't buy organic bread unless it's x3 or less than the cost of the generic white bread. If it is more expensive, I'm entitled to steal it." Sorry folks, you're entitled to not buy it, not…

"Sorry folks, you're entitled to not buy it, not to steal it." EXACTLY. Yes, downloading a movie isn't exactly stealing, but it's still taking something without permission and it should be frowned upon just as much as stealing is. If a person pirates a movie they're taking something without reimbursing the rights owner with what they want. People aren't judged for stealing because it costs the store owner money, they…

> People aren't judged for stealing because it costs the store owner money, they're judged because it's immoral!

I'm not sure it's as simple as that. One could always ask: "Why is it immoral to steal?" and the answer usually revolves around how stealing deprives the owner of something he had a legitimate claim to, etc. etc. That's how our moral intuitions have evolved over thousands of years.

The fact that this age-old intuition no longer seems to apply online is exactly why piracy creates a moral conundrum. You can't resolve the conundrum by fiat. Copyright infringement is a different crime from stealing, and rightly so, because piracy has different moral and economic implications than stealing has.

Re: Don't Make Me Steal

#66

Post by eli » Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 9:58 PM UTC

cmars232 wrote: post #54

rubidium wrote: post #10

I really don't like the "don't make me steal" attitude. It undermines a good society. The creators of this campaign decided that "Purchase should not exceed the cinema price." Really? What if we did that for, say, organic bread. "I won't buy organic bread unless it's x3 or less than the cost of the generic white bread. If it is more expensive, I'm entitled to steal it." Sorry folks, you're entitled to not buy it, not…

Yeah, but I would download a loaf of organic bread if I could. And I'd copy that loaf whenever I needed more for a sandwich, and I'd upload that bread pattern to all my friends, and give away free slices to any hungry people I came across. Post-scarcity is funny that way.

Sure, and if you ever create a film, feel free to release it under Creative Commons so that people can treat it that way. But not every content creator feels that way and you don't have the right to overrule them just because you can.

Re: Don't Make Me Steal

#67

Post by endtime » Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 10:00 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #42

endtime wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're entitled to watch organic bread without paying. The problem with comparing content piracy with theft of physical objects is that the latter are scare and the former is not. I'm not trying to justify content piracy, I'm just saying that you-wouldn't-download-a-car analogies are invalid.

No, you aren't. The response to your silly analogy is, "if I throw a black drape over my organic bread and allow you to see it only after paying for a loaf, you cannot legally enter my shop and remove the drape". The fact that nobody would set up such a system is evidence that your analogy is unproductive, not that your argument is strong.

The very point of my comment is that such analogies are silly and unproductive.

Re: Don't Make Me Steal

#68

Post by mitcheme » Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 10:00 PM UTC

I agree with the general idea but the specific criteria sounds very good from a consumer POV and not very realistic for a company to offer.

"Rent should not exceed 1/3 of the cinema price. Purchase should not exceed the cinema price."

Rent/purchase and cinema are completely different businesses, with different expenses. Going to the cinema doesn't give you a permanent copy. I'm pretty sure movie ticket prices are subsidized by sales of overpriced popcorn, drinks, and snacks. Online sales/rentals might be better compared to brick-and-mortar sales/rentals rather than cinema. Either that or offer a breakdown of how it might be viable for a company to charge those prices.

"I have access to pretty much every movie ever made."

This isn't possible using any other legitimate method that I know of; the only reason pirates can do it is because they don't have to worry about the legal issues, pay for licensing, etc. They just need access to a physical or digital copy which is far easier to do. This will probably be even harder when combined with the pricing demands since it limits how much companies can pay for licensing. If you mean major films/TV shows only, "most" might be a better word, otherwise it sounds like you want them to chase down every indie filmmaker who's put out a movie that a dozen people might be interested in watching.

"Pricing of TV shows is about 1/3 of movies. I pay for the content, not for bandwidth."

These seem almost contradictory to me. I'm guessing the pricing of TV shows should be 1/3 that of movies because they're 1/3 as long, but if "content" means "length" then the second point doesn't mean very much in most cases. If content is some measure of quality/popularity then there's no reason why TV shows would cost less than movies. (Especially since, from my POV, there are far more good TV shows right now than good movies.)

(edited for formatting and grammar.)

Re: Don't Make Me Steal

#69

Post by citricsquid » Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 10:02 PM UTC

kijinbear wrote: post #65

citricsquid wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Sorry folks, you're entitled to not buy it, not to steal it." EXACTLY. Yes, downloading a movie isn't exactly stealing, but it's still taking something without permission and it should be frowned upon just as much as stealing is. If a person pirates a movie they're taking something without reimbursing the rights owner with what they want. People aren't judged for stealing because it costs the store owner money, they…

> People aren't judged for stealing because it costs the store owner money, they're judged because it's immoral! I'm not sure it's as simple as that. One could always ask: "Why is it immoral to steal?" and the answer usually revolves around how stealing deprives the owner of something he had a legitimate claim to, etc. etc. That's how our moral intuitions have evolved over thousands of years. The fact that this age-o…

I must be completely insane then, because I don't see stealing as wrong because it deprives the owner of their property, I see it as wrong because you're taking something you don't own on your own terms, not the terms of the person who owns it.

If John the shop owner wants to sell bread for $10/loaf and you take it for free, that's immoral because it was his bread and he wanted $10 for it. If Tony the musician wants $10 for an mp3 copy of his latest single and you take it for free, that's immoral because it's his and he wants $10 for it.

Whether or not you deprive the person of money is a side issue, the idea of ownership matters more, to me at least. If I own something through purchase, creation or inheritance it's still mine and you have no right to take it, whether or not it deprives me of it, it's still immoral.

summary: my content, my terms.

Re: Don't Make Me Steal

#70

Post by SoftwareMaven » Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 10:02 PM UTC

I love iPads, but Apple charges more than I think they should be allowed to charge. I'm going to steal one until they lower the price. I promise I'll buy one then.

I love Photoshop, but Adobe charges more than I think they should be allowed to charge. I'm going to steal it until they lower the price. I promise I'll buy one then.

I love Wolfram-Alpha's database, but Mathematica costs way more than I think they should be allowed to charge. I'm going to steal it until they lower the price. I promise I'll buy one then.

Does this not seam like a ludicrous attitude to you?