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ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

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Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#81

Post by mindgam3 »

sb057 wrote: post #80
mLuby wrote: post #74

If we had a crowd-sourced database of cell towers (picture & coordinates) wouldn't it then be straightforward to know (and report) when your phone wasn't connecting to a legitimate tower? I for one want to make sure the criminals aren't intercepting my signal with home-made stingrays; the police have other lawful ways to get what they need.

People are way ahead of you: https://cellularprivacy.github.io/Android-IMSI-Catcher-Detec...

Not sure if those apps works as well as advertised.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/stingray-detector-apps-andorid...

Edit: fully removing amp from link

Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#82

Post by mirimir »

abeppu wrote: post #24

Some informed person can probably tell us: are there any technical developments on the horizon which could plausibly make stingrays unviable? From a lay perspective, it seems like cell tech hasn't been designed to meet some criteria that ought to be achievable. - Are there future cell technology standards being planned which would make it harder for a 3rd party device to impersonate a cell tower? (e.g. the police wou…

It used to be that only 2G was vulnerable, but newer devices don't depend on downgrading. But with suitable phones, I gather that one can detect suspicious baseband activity. However, by the time that's obvious, the phone will already be pwned.

https://www.tomsguide.com/us/cellphone-tracker-stingray,news...

https://www.tomsguide.com/us/imsi-catcher-catcher,news-19438...

Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#83

Post by qrbLPHiKpiux »

hanniabu wrote: post #60
chaps wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As part of some volunteer work I'm doing with Lucy Parsons Labs, I submitted a FOIA request to every single state's largest city, asking for search warrant records that would likely exist on complaints for search warrants, the warrants themselves, or from any audit. About 100 requests in total. After two months, only two cities have sent me their search warrant records. All other states have given me rejections sayin…

Ahhh, good ol' government inefficiencies and obfuscation. I have no faith in there ever being efficient systems in place because it'll just make it harder to hide shady behavior.

That’s how it’s been developed, continues, and planned. If it wasn’t, it wouldn’t be like this.

Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#84

Post by tracker1 »

nerdponx wrote: post #76
mLuby wrote: post #74

If we had a crowd-sourced database of cell towers (picture & coordinates) wouldn't it then be straightforward to know (and report) when your phone wasn't connecting to a legitimate tower? I for one want to make sure the criminals aren't intercepting my signal with home-made stingrays; the police have other lawful ways to get what they need.

Considering all the stuff that's open public information, it's a bit surprising that cell tower locations aren't .

It's kind of sensitive information with regards to communications infrastructure. Not too dissimilar from various details of sensitive sites not being disclosed to reduce the risk of a coordinated attack.

Not saying it's effective, but I can understand the reasoning.

Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#85

Post by Gaelan »

chaps wrote: post #43
calibas wrote: post #12

Stingray use requires a warrant and every case should be dismissed where one was used without a warrant. I'm sure that's the main reason they want to hide the use of stingrays, they know they're doing something wrong. Police having the ability to spy on everyone with little to no oversight is nightmarish authoritarianism, it's completely against the spirit of American democracy, not to mention in violation of The Con…

As part of some volunteer work I'm doing with Lucy Parsons Labs, I submitted a FOIA request to every single state's largest city, asking for search warrant records that would likely exist on complaints for search warrants, the warrants themselves, or from any audit. About 100 requests in total. After two months, only two cities have sent me their search warrant records. All other states have given me rejections sayin…

Do you happen to have a city-by-city breakdown of the responses anywhere?

Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#86

Post by ColanR »

jokoon wrote: post #63

Knowing Bellard managed to build a 3G cell tower just by using a cheap antenna, I guess it means anybody can build a stingray, although connecting to the cellphone network might not be a trivial thing to do. No idea how companies secure their networks, and I wonder if there are security standard about it.

Where might I find more information about this?

Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#87

Post by no_opinions »

Why not focus policies around using the surveillance tools?

The tools should be as powerful as possible. To keep people safe, shouldn't infrastructure be powerful enough to tap anything instantly with proper authorization, even backward in time? Why not?

Then we're focused on making rules better. Isn't that the best thing to do in a system of laws and standards?

Imagine if you could change any aspect of the system to make it more proportional, fair, ethical, whatever. Why not think about asking the right questions, weighing the pros and cons, and tailoring a way to improve it with minimum side effects?

Also, sometimes the regulations are so strict, it's dangerous.

For instance, here's an example where the rules around stingrays being so strict led a guy to get away with murder (in eyes of the judge):

> Circuit Judge Yolanda Tanner said in court Monday that while she is suppressing the evidence “with great reluctance,” Copes is “likely guilty.” https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/04/citing-unconstit...

I wonder what it would have been like had that case been in Florida. Which has sweet inevitable evidence law.

Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#88

Post by 0x0aff374668 »

blotter_paper wrote: post #62
abeppu wrote: post #24

Some informed person can probably tell us: are there any technical developments on the horizon which could plausibly make stingrays unviable? From a lay perspective, it seems like cell tech hasn't been designed to meet some criteria that ought to be achievable. - Are there future cell technology standards being planned which would make it harder for a 3rd party device to impersonate a cell tower? (e.g. the police wou…

> Why can't we encrypt calls and texts in a way which doesn't let all this stuff get read? Like (handwaving) either trust the network and encrypt with a key they provide, or else some form end-to-end encryption (where maybe generating keys is part of what happens when you activate a sim card or something)? We can have E2E encryption on cellphones today, just make calls and send texts over Signal (with other people wh…

Interestingly, at DefCon last year, a presentation was talking about how in Africa there are interposer SIM shims that slip over the top of the simcard and provide additional functionality. Citation needed, but I was impressed they could fit a small MCU in such a thin form factor!

Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#89

Post by 0x0aff374668 »

caconym_ wrote: post #3

Presumably Homeland Security and its child agencies are targeting everybody within 100 miles of a border (~65% of the population) with any and every form of surveillance they can think of, because why not? It's very legal, and very cool.

Wasn't there just a court case that ruled CBP couldn't force you to unlock your device without a warrant? Like just 2-3 weeks ago.

Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#90

Post by rahuldottech »

mindgam3 wrote: post #81
sb057 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are way ahead of you: https://cellularprivacy.github.io/Android-IMSI-Catcher-Detec...

Not sure if those apps works as well as advertised. https://www.zdnet.com/article/stingray-detector-apps-andorid... Edit: fully removing amp from link

Non-AMP link: https://www.zdnet.com/article/stingray-detector-apps-andorid...
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