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Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

sloanreview.mit.edu

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Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#331

Post by anon9001 »

jimbokun wrote: post #319
anon9001 wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to contribute to the value of the organization because you're a substantial equity holder, then talk to the founders. A sweatshop with high turnover should be less valuable to an acquirer than a strong team. Your initiative may be well received as leadership and you can get your promotion that way. If you want to stay in the organization and get promoted by performance metrics, then figure out what number…

You seem to have re-iterated the Gervais principle: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-... (although leader, model worker, autopilot are more polite terms than sociopath, clueless, and losers)

Ha, that's fantastic! I didn't know it had a name.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#332

Post by djhn »

anon9001 wrote: post #331
jimbokun wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have re-iterated the Gervais principle: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-... (although leader, model worker, autopilot are more polite terms than sociopath, clueless, and losers)

Ha, that's fantastic! I didn't know it had a name.

Not just a name, but a whole collection of essays characterizing modern corporate life. And you just managed to summarise its takeaway very eloquently in ordinary, everyday language.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#333

Post by [deleted] »

whateveracct wrote: post #270
randomidiot666 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And those who do, have a competitive edge over you. It's an investment in yourself that qualifies you to leave and find a better paying job.

Leaving and finding a better paying job is already Easy Enough after a few years at one place regardless. I've got better ways to spend my time for my career and life than learning things for the benefit of my current employer.

[deleted]

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#334

Post by vorpalhex »

BigJono wrote: post #301
vorpalhex wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like that everywhere > product guys cycle through the status of each dev team members’ items during each daily standup Something has gone horrible off the rails. Standup is supposed to be a quick time for every team member to raise any blockers primarily, with a quick "here's what I did, here's what I'm doing" type blurb. The benefit of standup is identifying blockers and if engineers are getting mired in pr…

If this were the case then standups would be totally useless unless the org was so cooked that nothing gets done unless someone is made accountable in front of the entire team. If I run into a blocker why would I wait until the next morning to try and get it resolved?

"Hey, I spent all yesterday trying to get X to work but I think I'm stuck"

"Hey I was trying to use Mary's api but I couldn't figure it out, can someone help me find who to contact?"

If you ask immediately for help all the time you aren't being self sufficient. At the same time if you are spinning your wheels then just a second pair of eyes can be helpful.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#335

Post by matz1 »

paracyst wrote: post #240
protonimitate wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've started using Friday as a "personal development" day at work. I do not write any code on Friday (unless it's a severe production level issue). Instead, I spend the mornings reviewing PRs that I wasn't included on (to keep up with whats happening, but also to learn more about how other people write and review code) and the afternoons are spent reading/researching/online classes. This has really helped me avoid bu…

This sounds like a good idea that I would really like to try, for my own sanity if for nothing else. For me, the issue—imagined or not—would arise in the Friday morning daily stand-up. I’m not sure it would go over well if I said that I intend to spend part of the day doing PRs (this is fine and expected) and the other part learning/researching (likely not). Oh the joys of the JIRA sweatshop. We have JIRA pulled up o…

Well, you don't have to mentioned that you are doing your own research...

Do they look over your shoulder every minute?

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#336

Post by Braggadocious »

yters wrote: post #312
Braggadocious wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's sortof what the enlightenment was about... The enlightenment period was a decentralization of information caused by the reinvention and widespread use of the printing press in europe. During the dark ages europe's literacy rate was comparable to pre-mesopotamia. The fall of the roman empire lead to a fracturing of european civilization, the near-total loss of literacy, latin fractured into a dozen languages be…

The precise narrative you just articulated is that of the enlightenment in the 18th century, which is a period much latter than the invention of the printing press and Protestantism. A good book for you to check out is Rodney Stark's "For the Glory of God", written by a secular historian debunking much of the above narrative. The fact that many educated today take your narrative for unarguable fact also illustrates t…

The brutality of the dark ages has been debunked. The timeline I just gave you about illiteracy, the printing press, the enlightenment, and our 400 year old education system remains in tact. Neil postman's a good source for the history of education (see "The Disappearance of Childhood") or you can simply wikipedia it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_(historiography) There's some graphs that show how the enlightenment coincides an exponential growth in mass publication.

As far as protestantism and the printing press being invented prior to the enlightenment, yeah. Without widespread use of both you don't get the enlightenment for reasons I mentioned previously. And neither were really new ideas, either. Ancient greece had the printing press, high rates of literacy and a belief in interpreting texts for yourself, but these ideas were lost during the dark ages.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#337

Post by Viliam1234 »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #167
rectang wrote: post #76

I'm currently negotiating with two potential employers, one of them one of the bigs. It would be great if they would pay me to learn at work, but I don't feel like I'm in a position to ask for that — that's an industry=wide problem. So I'm trying to hack the system to get fewer hours: 30-32 per week. That gives me enough time to self-study, handle some of my own training and overdeliver, yet still have a life. I have…

“40 hours is what they are set up for and it is hard for them to figure out how to be flexible, even if they want to.” I had the same experience. asked for 32 hours week with corresponding pay cut. The HR people barely could comprehend the idea and certainly didn’t have a process for dealing with such a request.

I also tried to get a 32-hour week, interviewed with multiple companies, and at the end got a deal for mere 50% of my usual (40-hour) salary. And the company still felt they were doing me a big favor.

Within my probationary period I decided that 50% of money for 80% of time is too much of a discount; that I could simply work full-time for a year or two and then take a break for a year or two instead. But I never actually took that break.

There are many companies complaining how they can't find enough competent programmers. But almost none of them is willing to provide part-time work as a benefit. I believe that a software company that would publicly declare a 4-day workweek would soon have hundreds of people begging for an interview.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#338

Post by hnick »

BigJono wrote: post #301
vorpalhex wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like that everywhere > product guys cycle through the status of each dev team members’ items during each daily standup Something has gone horrible off the rails. Standup is supposed to be a quick time for every team member to raise any blockers primarily, with a quick "here's what I did, here's what I'm doing" type blurb. The benefit of standup is identifying blockers and if engineers are getting mired in pr…

If this were the case then standups would be totally useless unless the org was so cooked that nothing gets done unless someone is made accountable in front of the entire team. If I run into a blocker why would I wait until the next morning to try and get it resolved?

Usually the idea is you move onto another task since you have multiple allocated at one time, then ask briefly for guidance during the standup when everyone has put time aside, rather than interrupting everyone throughout the day.

Blockers are not just people and usually it's not done for accountability. They can be undocumented APIs, an unfamiliar requirement ("do we already have a way to extract images from PDFs before I download this new thing?"), etc.

If it is urgent and your only option is to sit there and do nothing then asking the team for help during the day is fine. Just weigh up the cost of interrupting everyone (or that high-performer who has all the answers) against what you gain.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#339

Post by hnick »

vorpalhex wrote: post #247
paracyst wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like a good idea that I would really like to try, for my own sanity if for nothing else. For me, the issue—imagined or not—would arise in the Friday morning daily stand-up. I’m not sure it would go over well if I said that I intend to spend part of the day doing PRs (this is fine and expected) and the other part learning/researching (likely not). Oh the joys of the JIRA sweatshop. We have JIRA pulled up o…

It's not like that everywhere > product guys cycle through the status of each dev team members’ items during each daily standup Something has gone horrible off the rails. Standup is supposed to be a quick time for every team member to raise any blockers primarily, with a quick "here's what I did, here's what I'm doing" type blurb. The benefit of standup is identifying blockers and if engineers are getting mired in pr…

A place where I worked got off the rails when standups were used to allow two people to work through a problem while the rest of us sit there patiently. They grew to be 45 minutes long each day.

People brought chairs. To a standup!

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#340

Post by celticmusic »

MrFoof wrote: post #291
sidlls wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn’t like that everywhere but it’s quite common, especially in companies where development is not the primary focus of the company. You’re more likely to end up in that kind of company than not unless you are in a place like the Bay Area or similar tech hub.

Replying purely for reinforcement of the parent. This is not just common, but the norm in most organizations. I think the only time in the past 12 years (working with probably 20 organizations) where this didn't occur is the one engagement when I was charged managing the team. There's far too many places where a team of even just four or five developers will spend 30 minutes (sometimes an hour!) every morning in "sta…

I recently had my first experience with "agile" and "scrum", and this was my experience. I left after being there for 6 months for unrelated reasons, but one of things that made it an easy decision was the daily fucking standup.

I convinced the team to do without the standup and just put the status updates in slack for a week. At the end I was the only one who thought it was better. To quote one developer "I don't read it when its in slack". That indicates to me that the information isn't necessary to do your goddamned job.

I dislike agile now as a result of that experience.

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