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ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

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Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#41

This made me wonder, Do spoofed callers appear on a capture device as the spoofed number? If so, you could in theory use law to target anyone by calling their number using a spoofed number that is included on a surveillance order. Just keep calling the numbers you want to monitor and the net keeps getting bigger. Please tell me this is not the case?

Caller ID information is sent to the receiver by the switch.

If your switch is under your control (say, you're using Asterisk), you can send whatever you want, as demonstrated nearly constantly by all those spam calls.

Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was the ACLU going off the tracks exactly?

I love the work that the ACLU does, but they've always been picking and choosing which rights to actively support. See the opinion of the 2nd amendment on their own website: https://www.aclu.org/other/second-amendment I personally don't hold the constitution as a sacred document, though I do find that it aligns with my ideals more than the actual policies of modern America. I could respect an organization being oppos…

Are you concerned that organizations like the NRA are doing an insufficient job defending the 2nd Amendment to the point where the ACLU desperately needs to step in?

Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#43
post #12

Stingray use requires a warrant and every case should be dismissed where one was used without a warrant. I'm sure that's the main reason they want to hide the use of stingrays, they know they're doing something wrong. Police having the ability to spy on everyone with little to no oversight is nightmarish authoritarianism, it's completely against the spirit of American democracy, not to mention in violation of The Con…

As part of some volunteer work I'm doing with Lucy Parsons Labs, I submitted a FOIA request to every single state's largest city, asking for search warrant records that would likely exist on complaints for search warrants, the warrants themselves, or from any audit. About 100 requests in total.

After two months, only two cities have sent me their search warrant records. All other states have given me rejections saying:

1. The records are on paper and never transcribed.

2. The records are digital, but there's no way to query from a frontend.

3. The records are digital and queryable, but the agency considers the use of queries "creating reports", where tons of states have case law backing this up.

4. Nothing, because they haven't responded yet.

So far I've received three enormous fee estimations of ~500k, ~400k and ~150k. Obviously not affordable.

Chicago is one of the few cities that sent records (though, it took a year). They've sent three separately sized files for the same timeframe - 11k rows, 9k rows, and 20k rows. The data is messy, and there is some very important info missing from their records. Can't speak too much about it yet, since I'm still confirming the reasons. It's been blindingly frustrating trying to get a consistent message about whether the data is even accurate.

All this goes to show that police agencies don't make records on search warrants even remotely easily available to the public, and we have no way of gauging whether our constitutional rights are being upheld throughout the US. It's honestly very sad.

If you want to support this work and our other projects, please consider a donation to Lucy Parsons Labs: https://lucyparsonslabs.com/support/

Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the work that the ACLU does, but they've always been picking and choosing which rights to actively support. See the opinion of the 2nd amendment on their own website: https://www.aclu.org/other/second-amendment I personally don't hold the constitution as a sacred document, though I do find that it aligns with my ideals more than the actual policies of modern America. I could respect an organization being oppos…

Are you concerned that organizations like the NRA are doing an insufficient job defending the 2nd Amendment to the point where the ACLU desperately needs to step in?

The NRA is more an arm of the arms industry than it is an organization actually interested in the rights of individual gun owners; for example, they're in favor of making 3D printed guns illegal. This is good for the industry, but would infringe on the currently recognised rights of individuals. I think the Second Amendment Foundation would be a better example of an organization that actually supports the 2nd. I do think our 2nd amendment rights are slipping away (in the beginning we could own and sell unregulated cannons), but I'm not presuming to tell the ACLU how to spend their time and resources. As noted above, I would appreciate a recognition that their decision to not defend the 2nd is actually political rather than legal in nature, which I believe is pretty obvious.

Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you concerned that organizations like the NRA are doing an insufficient job defending the 2nd Amendment to the point where the ACLU desperately needs to step in?

The NRA is more an arm of the arms industry than it is an organization actually interested in the rights of individual gun owners; for example, they're in favor of making 3D printed guns illegal. This is good for the industry, but would infringe on the currently recognised rights of individuals. I think the Second Amendment Foundation would be a better example of an organization that actually supports the 2nd. I do t…

> As noted above, I would appreciate a recognition that their decision to not defend the 2nd is actually political rather than legal in nature, which I believe is pretty obvious.

You're leaving out the third option, practical.

There are already well funded, effective organizations defending your interpretation of the Second Amendment. It makes little sense for the ACLU to divert resources to that endeavour as a result, even if they agreed with your political view on the individual vs. collective right to bear arms.

Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#46
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost all airports permanently run a Stingray like device

Care to elaborate more on this?

> For two months last year, researchers at the University of Washington paid drivers of an unidentified ridesharing service to keep custom-made sensors in the trunks of their cars, converting those vehicles into mobile cellular data collectors. They used the results to map out practically every cell tower in the cities of Seattle and Milwaukee—along with at least two anomalous transmitters they believe were likely stingrays, located at the Seattle office of the US Customs and Immigration Service, and the Seattle-Tacoma Airport.

source: https://www.wired.com/2017/06/researchers-use-rideshares-sni...

> At Trudeau airport, Radio-Canada detected the catcher's presence through the use of a CryptoPhone — a cellphone look-alike that emits red alerts when a fake antenna tries to catch its signal. Several red alerts were received, throughout the afternoon and early evening, in the section of the airport for U.S. departures.

source: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/trudeau-airport-spyi...

> The devices are operated out of at least five U.S. airports, "covering most of the U.S. population". It is unclear whether the U.S. Marshals Service requests court orders to use the devices.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirtbox_(cell_phone)

Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#47
post #31
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is knowing a Stingray was ever used in the first place. It's been documented that the police routinely utilize parallel construction when they discover things through illegal means in the first place. https://www.wired.com/story/stingray-secret-surveillance-pro...

Almost all airports permanently run a Stingray like device

What is the difference between a permanent stingray and a cell tower?

Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NRA is more an arm of the arms industry than it is an organization actually interested in the rights of individual gun owners; for example, they're in favor of making 3D printed guns illegal. This is good for the industry, but would infringe on the currently recognised rights of individuals. I think the Second Amendment Foundation would be a better example of an organization that actually supports the 2nd. I do t…

> As noted above, I would appreciate a recognition that their decision to not defend the 2nd is actually political rather than legal in nature, which I believe is pretty obvious. You're leaving out the third option, practical . There are already well funded, effective organizations defending your interpretation of the Second Amendment. It makes little sense for the ACLU to divert resources to that endeavour as a resu…

That would be fine, too! Knowing that the ACLU doesn't support the 2nd, I can choose to support organizations that do in proportion to how much I care about that amendment as opposed to the others. I'm totally cool with that. But practicality is not their stated reason for not defending the 2nd, and if it were their actual reason then I'm not sure what reason they would have to use a legal rationale instead. If their actual reason is politics, it's pretty obvious why they wouldn't want to admit that; it would alienate some people, and make them appear more partisan.

Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#49
post #24

Some informed person can probably tell us: are there any technical developments on the horizon which could plausibly make stingrays unviable? From a lay perspective, it seems like cell tech hasn't been designed to meet some criteria that ought to be achievable. - Are there future cell technology standards being planned which would make it harder for a 3rd party device to impersonate a cell tower? (e.g. the police wou…

5G is by nature shorter range, which at least makes the surveillance harder to do and more targeted when it happens. But I can't say much for the protocol, having not done much with it.

On the flip side, I think this would make pinpoint the device‘s geo-location much easier.

Re: ACLU sues Homeland Security over 'stingray' cell phone surveillance

#50
post #12

Stingray use requires a warrant and every case should be dismissed where one was used without a warrant. I'm sure that's the main reason they want to hide the use of stingrays, they know they're doing something wrong. Police having the ability to spy on everyone with little to no oversight is nightmarish authoritarianism, it's completely against the spirit of American democracy, not to mention in violation of The Con…

OTOH, Google and Facebook, with annual incomes larger than the GDP of a medium European country, can log everyone’s every breath, on the internet and, more recently, in real life, with impunity. I just can’t wrap my head how the municipal police doing it is “nightmarish authoritarianism”, but big adtech, de facto way more powerful, gets a cursory pass.
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