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First all-electric seaplane takes flight in B.C.

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Re: First all-electric seaplane takes flight in B.C.

#61

Post by riazrizvi »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #27

You can do small aircraft like this, no problem. The trouble is you can't scale it up, due to how quickly the power and energy demands go up. This thing is 560 kW and gets a range of 86 nmi; an A320 is around 40 000 kW and has a range of 3 500 nmi, while an A380 is around 80 000 kW and has a range of 8 500 nmi. Going from this DHC-2 to the A380 requires an increase in energy storage by a factor of around 14 000x, whi…

According to my numbers an electric 747 would get more people further.

1. DHC-2 takes 6 people 86 miles ~= 500person/miles

2. 747 potential battery payload ~= 200,000kg (fuel capacity)

3. Power capacity of 200,000kg lithium-in ~= 25MW hours

4. Power required to take off, assuming 2.5 minutes to reach cruising altitude ~= 90MW * 2.5 / 60 ~= 4MWh

5. Power to cruise at about 600mph ~= 1/4 power to take off = 22MW (waves hand)

6. Time available to cruise ~= 1hr

7. Distance cruised ~= 600miles

8. Electric 747 takes 600 people 600 miles = 360,000person/miles

Maybe the power to cruise is 1/2 of power to take off, they'd still get 120,000person/miles.

Re: First all-electric seaplane takes flight in B.C.

#62

Post by goodcanadian »

dang wrote: post #51
jonawesomegreen wrote: post #41

I found this article by the CBC more informative then the one linked: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/electric-sea... > "It's a prototype for sure," said McDougall, "but in every way it's a high-tech piece of equipment, which is kind of ironic considering the airframe that it's attached to is actually one year younger than me — 62 years old." > McDougall's flight is the first exercise in what is expec…

Ok, we'll change to that from https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50738983 . Thanks!

I feel ever so slightly ripped off :-)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21760768

Re: First all-electric seaplane takes flight in B.C.

#63

Post by netrap »

jsjohnst wrote: post #54
bzudo wrote: post #3

Off topic and stupid, but could an electric plane be outfitted with lightning rods and/or lightning rockets to attract lightning strikes in order to charge the batteries?

The idea that a lightning bolt could be used as a power up source has been thoroughly debunked by myself and others in this thread already, but I thought I’d take another angle in response, just using electricity in general. A single GE90 aircraft jet engine used in the 777 is up to 111,000 horsepower[0]. So for the Boeing 777, that’s ~220,000HP. Converting horsepower to megawatts, that’s 164MW of power during takeof…

Are planes using all that HP? Isn't HP flexible? That's the point of say a car dyno, right?

Re: First all-electric seaplane takes flight in B.C.

#64

Post by ska »

Some perhaps useful context: Harbour air operates the worlds largest sea plane service, the majority of it between Vancouver (city) and Vancouver Island (mostly Victoria). They are a perfect test bed for this, as the in air time is about 15-20 min for most routes. (less 100km/60m ).

So while electric is a long way from long haul domestic routes, let alone international, I could see it taking over specific services like this fairly quickly, at least relatively speaking. I can see why they are experimenting with it.

Apparently they plan to have certification for this aircraft in the next 2 years, but early days yet.

Re: First all-electric seaplane takes flight in B.C.

#65

Post by novok »

lemmox wrote: post #32

Adding a little context: Harbour Air is a short-hop seaplane operator working out of downtown Vancouver. Most of their flights are ~ 100km across the Georgia Straight to Victoria and Nanaimo on Vancouver Island. Trips are ~ 30 minutes IIRC. There is no bridge to this island and the alternative is a fairly large commute involving a ferry. It's quite convenient to have a direct connection between downtown Vancouver and…

The island cluster around victoria, vancouver and seattle is pretty much a perfect use case for electric airplanes today too.

Making a bridge would be incredibly expensive and be a lot of firsts in bridge making, so it's not worth it: https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/transportation/transporta...

Re: First all-electric seaplane takes flight in B.C.

#66

Post by gok »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #27

You can do small aircraft like this, no problem. The trouble is you can't scale it up, due to how quickly the power and energy demands go up. This thing is 560 kW and gets a range of 86 nmi; an A320 is around 40 000 kW and has a range of 3 500 nmi, while an A380 is around 80 000 kW and has a range of 8 500 nmi. Going from this DHC-2 to the A380 requires an increase in energy storage by a factor of around 14 000x, whi…

Jets consume an unusual amount of energy and you don't run them at full throttle all the time. You'd probably use propellers and/or ducted fans for any electric airliner.

Re: First all-electric seaplane takes flight in B.C.

#67

Post by rconti »

Tangential; I took a Kenmore Air seaplane flight from Seattle (South Lake Union) to Victoria this summer, and it was absolutely amazing. I loved every second of it, and can't recommend it highly enough. 45 minutes flying time, so quick and convenient. We walked to and from hotels on both end.

When I lived in the northwest, it was trivial to drive+ferry to Victoria, even though it was very slow. I always thought the Clipper hydrofoil, let alone flying, were unfathomably expensive luxuries.

But as a tourist without a car and on a limited schedule, suddenly the Clipper (hydrofoil passenger-only ferry from downtown) and flying seem like reasonable options versus having to rent a car, pay for fuel, take a car ferry, drive a bunch on both ends, pay for parking, etc.

In the end, I think Kenmore cost less than 2x what the Clipper would have cost us. Not cheap, but absolutely worth it for a novel one-time experience. One passenger even remarked that the seaplane flight was cheaper than flying from Sea-Tac to Victoria airport, before even factoring in the fact that neither airport is near the major city you're coming from or going to.

Re: First all-electric seaplane takes flight in B.C.

#68

Post by dang »

goodcanadian wrote: post #62
dang wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, we'll change to that from https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50738983 . Thanks!

I feel ever so slightly ripped off :-) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21760768

It happens! Sorry. We do plan to do something eventually to share karma with earlier submissons. In the meantime it's a bit of a lottery, but it does even out in the long run if you keep submitting good stories.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Re: First all-electric seaplane takes flight in B.C.

#69

Post by beefield »

deepspace wrote: post #47
semi-extrinsic wrote: post #27

You can do small aircraft like this, no problem. The trouble is you can't scale it up, due to how quickly the power and energy demands go up. This thing is 560 kW and gets a range of 86 nmi; an A320 is around 40 000 kW and has a range of 3 500 nmi, while an A380 is around 80 000 kW and has a range of 8 500 nmi. Going from this DHC-2 to the A380 requires an increase in energy storage by a factor of around 14 000x, whi…

> This thing is 560 kW and gets a range of 86 nmi Not even that. I believe an 86 nmi range is what they are hoping to achieve by 2025. Current range is a fraction of that. The technology demonstrator has a theoretical flight time of 15 minutes and no ability to carry passengers because all the room/weight is taken up by batteries.

Do you have a source? (Not trying to be snarky but seriously interested. Haven't seen any technical details anywhere...)

Re: First all-electric seaplane takes flight in B.C.

#70

Post by anongraddebt »

0xffff2 wrote: post #58
apendleton wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's all undoubtedly true, but fortunately, most flights don't require the capabilities of an A380, and in fact, demand for that specific set of capabilities is apparently low enough to stop building them altogether. Even for A320 flights, most are not 3500 miles, even if the aircraft is capable of it. If we could make progress targeting just short hops targeted by DASH-8s or CRJs or whatever, we could still make s…

All electric with this century's technology might work for 8-16 passenger short-haul aircraft, if that market can be created (think, many flights from various regional airports between the SF Bay Area and LA area). Nothing bigger is going to fly without a massive breakthrough in battery energy density.

I agree. But can you explain why this is? For me, it's just a hunch.
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