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Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

sloanreview.mit.edu

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Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#271

Post by settsu »

gbrown wrote: post #125
settsu wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tie it to deliverables That's a great idea in theory because tackling a real world problem tends to motivate towards a real world solution. However, learning invariably encompasses failure which rarely measures up well with typical (if arguably useful/useless) performance metrics that developers contend with.

If the deliverable is a team report, then failures are super useful and still count. "I tried implementing X as a test after reading about method Y, but found that for our domain there are serious drawbacks."

I wholeheartedly agree with that outcome.

I was referring to the potential for a metric that could backfire in the context of a performance review. (And that'd be a relatively tame surprise in one of those god-forsaken events...)

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#272

Post by itronitron »

knightofmars wrote: post #126
rvense wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your lead made a mistake there. Someone with understanding of both FE and BE is worth as much as one of each, especially when they have intimate knowledge of your actual code.

>Someone with understanding of both FE and BE is worth as much as one of each... Someone with understanding of both FE and BE is valuable in certain situations. Companies love the idea of a "full stack engineer" because they believe they are getting two for the price of one. But in practice, and accounting for exceptions, that's not necessarily the case. A full-time FE with equal experience will be better at the fron…

I disagree, there is a point when having too much 'deep experience' in either BE or FE (usually BE) becomes counter-productive to performing useful work.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#273

Post by crispyambulance »

aczerepinski wrote: post #83

I’ve always learned on the job and have never asked permission. I guess I’m lucky that I haven’t worked in the type of places where somebody’s looking over my shoulder every minute of the day. Somewhere around an hour a day every day and I’ve been doing it for years and nobody has ever said anything about it. I subscribe to those weekly emails for the programming languages we use at work and I read them when they com…

> never asked permission

That's a key thing.

Even in the most high pressure environments, where "project management professionals" are breathing down your neck for "deliverables" it is your responsibility to learn stuff and evolve.

It's nice if there's time and resources for people to better themselves, but these are typically limited to activities which are "related" to one's work function and are subject to "approval" from people whose interest in your career stops hard at what you can do for them in the roles they assume you're best-suited for.

The good news is most places are NOT rank-and-yank hellscapes where every minute you do something that's not on somebody's gantt chart will cause you harm in the long term. In most places you can lift your nose off the grindstone... but you have to be willing to impose your own self-direction and structure.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#274

Post by hinkley »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #269
hinkley wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's often the case that a company decides to filter down the infinite possibilities of the programming world to a strict subset. What's left can often be a little boring, and that's on purpose. So in a world where your choices are 1) learn other tech within our toolbox or 2) learn stuff in your domain but outside of the scope of your current work... only one of those is okay to do much of on work time. All those ES2…

Until suddenly the requirement to support older browsers is dropped, or you get shifted to another project, and then these ES2018 features would come in handy. Learning only the stuff that covers your immediate working needs isn't a winning strategy, neither for you nor for the company.

If you are 'learning' stuff open-loop (with no feedback from users or peers), then you are deluding yourself about how much you've actually learned. You're one important but terribly insufficient step above book learning.

No battle plan survives contact with the enemy. There are tons of strategies I know to solve problems that I never use because it confuses other people (and some of them confuse me too when I look at them six months later). That's experience. That's wisdom. You won't find that in a private github repository, and only those who already know what they're looking for will find it in a book.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#275

Post by mebr »

r34 wrote: post #47

I divide my working time sth like 50/50 for actual tasks solving and learning. My company doesn't understand it, but I work remotely and no one notices. But soon I'm back to office. I've joined my current company two years ago. We are small (but constantly growing) company - about 10 programmers at the moment. 10 separate programmers, lack of notion of any "team". Time (and money) lost on problems arising from that f…

I have also been working remotely for multiple years now. Since I started taking learning new things as part of the work, I can say my efficiency has increased drastically. That has added value to myself and companies I have worked for.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#277

Post by [deleted] »

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #99
Braggadocious wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ever think about how much we subsidize businesses by paying for college ourselves? The older I get the more I think the university to corporation pipeline is a fucking racket. It also sucks for employees because here comes these kids who were allowed to learn about all the new technologies you wish you knew with zero distractions and other obligations, now comin' in hot on your heels to take yer jobs en masse, an…

You're correct but the difficulty is finding an alternative. Training employees who are then free to take their skills to another company that didn't bother with training gives that company the ability to lure workers away with higher salaries. There is a bit of tragedy of the commons in the skilled labor pool.

[deleted]

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#278

Post by 8ytecoder »

habnds wrote: post #20
ChuckMcM wrote: post #3

That you should “always be learning” is absolutely true. It helps with neuro-plasticity and keeps you engaged. That said, as a manager I find it hard to get direct reports to accept sometimes that it is not only okay, but required, by me that they learn new things. I do what I can to encourage it, offer to buy books for people, give time to do online course work, etc. They often complain that they don’t feel like the…

It's because when annual reviews happen they aren't talking about the books they read they're talking about a project that they contributed to. In my experience formalizing "learning" in the work place doesn't work because it requires the performance of learning for management types rather than real learning which involves working through real new problems over an extended period of time. The real way to get employee…

At least one big company I know of, learning is part of performance reviews - agreed upon in advance by the manager and engineer. It didn't usually help (at least AFAIK). Part the fault of the engineers and rest the culture of the team to always be fighting fires.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#279

Post by ryandrake »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #267
nogabebop23 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HR loves to trot out this saying, attributing it to the enlightened CEO or such. In my experience it's about 50-50 if someone stays because we offer advanced training or leverages their new skills to get a new job.

Convincing them to stay means people need to be given competitive pay once they have upped their market value.

“Train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don't want to.” — Richard Branson

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#280

Post by sidlls »

paracyst wrote: post #240
protonimitate wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've started using Friday as a "personal development" day at work. I do not write any code on Friday (unless it's a severe production level issue). Instead, I spend the mornings reviewing PRs that I wasn't included on (to keep up with whats happening, but also to learn more about how other people write and review code) and the afternoons are spent reading/researching/online classes. This has really helped me avoid bu…

This sounds like a good idea that I would really like to try, for my own sanity if for nothing else. For me, the issue—imagined or not—would arise in the Friday morning daily stand-up. I’m not sure it would go over well if I said that I intend to spend part of the day doing PRs (this is fine and expected) and the other part learning/researching (likely not). Oh the joys of the JIRA sweatshop. We have JIRA pulled up o…

It isn’t like that everywhere but it’s quite common, especially in companies where development is not the primary focus of the company. You’re more likely to end up in that kind of company than not unless you are in a place like the Bay Area or similar tech hub.
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