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Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

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Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#261

Post by tikiman163 »

aczerepinski wrote: post #83

I’ve always learned on the job and have never asked permission. I guess I’m lucky that I haven’t worked in the type of places where somebody’s looking over my shoulder every minute of the day. Somewhere around an hour a day every day and I’ve been doing it for years and nobody has ever said anything about it. I subscribe to those weekly emails for the programming languages we use at work and I read them when they com…

You're correct that it's our own responsibility to be on top of whatever is going on and to train ourselves. However, plenty of companies think that expect for training scheduled and provided by the company, that it's not appropriate to train ourselves on the clock.

Personally I agree with you, and find that discouraging people from training themselves during business hours just results in most employees not fully applying themselves.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#263

Post by ddek »

hkmurakami wrote: post #234
philjr wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

110% agreed I've always felt a level of entitlement around that. You (the business) want me to learn and get better. You get more value over time that way.

I think we're lucky that many companies have this attitude. I've experienced the polar opposite in a Japanese bigco where we were given extensive material to learn (generally about the industry, or certifications), and it was very clearly understood that we were to learn the material off company time. As an American naturally I had an allergic reaction to this culture.

Friend of mine is a senior exec for the Fujitsu Europe. I met him doing the Haute Route, a two-week ski tour in the Alps.

He says the amount of persuading he had to do to the global execs that being off-grid for two weeks might have it's benefits almost made it futile.

I can't help but wonder if this attitude has inhibited japanese progress.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#264

Post by docmars »

protonimitate wrote: post #227
aczerepinski wrote: post #83

I’ve always learned on the job and have never asked permission. I guess I’m lucky that I haven’t worked in the type of places where somebody’s looking over my shoulder every minute of the day. Somewhere around an hour a day every day and I’ve been doing it for years and nobody has ever said anything about it. I subscribe to those weekly emails for the programming languages we use at work and I read them when they com…

I've started using Friday as a "personal development" day at work. I do not write any code on Friday (unless it's a severe production level issue). Instead, I spend the mornings reviewing PRs that I wasn't included on (to keep up with whats happening, but also to learn more about how other people write and review code) and the afternoons are spent reading/researching/online classes. This has really helped me avoid bu…

I love this, and that a major value in it is feeling refreshed. I think I'm going to try this a bit, time-permitted, and ask for forgiveness later if there's ever an issue. I'm constantly finding gaps in my knowledge that my smarter team members would certainly benefit from me being more on the same page on if I spent more time developing my skills.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#265

Post by all2 »

randomidiot666 wrote: post #210
sethammons wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, that is when, as a team, you have to not classify things certain ways. Still meet your commitments, but bake in learning time. It just becomes part of what you do during the sprint. Likewise, you should not have a "testing time", "quality", or "security" budget - you just bake those into how the team operates.

^ This is the way. Learn how to sell it or hide it from those HR parasites.

Calling an entire field of personnel "parasites" is an ad hominem attack.

Even if you were to justify your statement, it would be an ad hominem attack.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#266

Post by dennis_jeeves »

runninganyways wrote: post #79
1-6 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great question, this is what I was wondering as well.

Well I dropped the golden handcuffs. So right now I'm flipping cars (replace a clutch, head gasket, etc.) driving for Lyft, and I might get a part-time job. I'm definitely not making as much money as I used to. But for me the traditional strategy of working for a company and saving up for retirement wasn't working anyhow. it was like well I'm either going to have to deal with this now when I can do something about it…

>All I really know is I was headed down the wrong path and I've been lying to myself for far too long.

Good for you in a manner speaking. Most people keep 'lying' to themselves their whole lives, not just about their sorry corporate jobs but life in general ( things like marriage, children etc.)

I really hope you succeed in the long run. I'm cheering for you.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#267

Post by lotsofpulp »

nogabebop23 wrote: post #205
alxlaz wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an old adage about this: Q: What happens if we provide education and training to our employees and they leave? A: Well, what happens if we don't, and they stay ? Growing a company's knowledge and skill base is an investment, not charity. Companies that don't do it reap exactly what they sow -- they're the same companies whose CEOs will otherwise loudly complain about how difficult it is to find skilled emplo…

HR loves to trot out this saying, attributing it to the enlightened CEO or such. In my experience it's about 50-50 if someone stays because we offer advanced training or leverages their new skills to get a new job.

Convincing them to stay means people need to be given competitive pay once they have upped their market value.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#268

Post by spike021 »

protonimitate wrote: post #227
aczerepinski wrote: post #83

I’ve always learned on the job and have never asked permission. I guess I’m lucky that I haven’t worked in the type of places where somebody’s looking over my shoulder every minute of the day. Somewhere around an hour a day every day and I’ve been doing it for years and nobody has ever said anything about it. I subscribe to those weekly emails for the programming languages we use at work and I read them when they com…

I've started using Friday as a "personal development" day at work. I do not write any code on Friday (unless it's a severe production level issue). Instead, I spend the mornings reviewing PRs that I wasn't included on (to keep up with whats happening, but also to learn more about how other people write and review code) and the afternoons are spent reading/researching/online classes. This has really helped me avoid bu…

My team when I first joined had something like this; we called it a 'spike' day. Basically a full day of time where we could learn about something new, maybe hack on a non-necessary feature or even personal project for a few hours a week.

But sadly over the past few years we've kind of just done away with it. We don't allot time for it specifically anymore. We think about it from time to time and wish we still had the bandwidth for it.

But it just doesn't happen anymore.

It's a tough thing to build into a team's structure, I think, and in such a way that it's sustainable.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#269

Post by TeMPOraL »

hinkley wrote: post #219
knightofmars wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Someone with understanding of both FE and BE is worth as much as one of each... Someone with understanding of both FE and BE is valuable in certain situations. Companies love the idea of a "full stack engineer" because they believe they are getting two for the price of one. But in practice, and accounting for exceptions, that's not necessarily the case. A full-time FE with equal experience will be better at the fron…

It's often the case that a company decides to filter down the infinite possibilities of the programming world to a strict subset. What's left can often be a little boring, and that's on purpose. So in a world where your choices are 1) learn other tech within our toolbox or 2) learn stuff in your domain but outside of the scope of your current work... only one of those is okay to do much of on work time. All those ES2…

Until suddenly the requirement to support older browsers is dropped, or you get shifted to another project, and then these ES2018 features would come in handy.

Learning only the stuff that covers your immediate working needs isn't a winning strategy, neither for you nor for the company.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#270

Post by whateveracct »

randomidiot666 wrote: post #216
whateveracct wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to spend my time outside work hours developing skills needed for my job. That's effectively the job stealing my time and money.

And those who do, have a competitive edge over you. It's an investment in yourself that qualifies you to leave and find a better paying job.

Leaving and finding a better paying job is already Easy Enough after a few years at one place regardless.

I've got better ways to spend my time for my career and life than learning things for the benefit of my current employer.

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