Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm • Hacker News Board

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#161

Post by greenonions » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 7:03 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #155

greenonions wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars kill ~40000 Americans annually. Is that cheap? Criticizing cars is the only way to wake people up to the damage they have caused in our society. Sure, cars are wonderful for people with mobility issues. For the vast majority of us to design our cities around two ton death machines is a tragedy. Our cities would be dramatically cheaper to live in with fewer cars. Less parking and road space allows higher density.…

> Criticizing cars is the only way to wake people up to the damage they have caused in our society. It's a way to make you look like an out-of-touch loony, who therefore gets ignored. If you want to reduce car use in the US, dial down the rhetoric, and work on increasing the convenience of not using a car. You're going to win more hearts and minds by making available something better than you are by constantly carpin…

Hard to mince words regarding the statistics on cars. You read and responded to the comment, so they clearly drive engagement.

Walking, biking, taking the bus, carpooling are incredibly convenient for anyone willing to try, and I certainly support efforts to improve the facilities for these at all opportunities.

There are uncomfortable truths that need to be addressed about cars, however, and you don't get anywhere by avoiding it. Imagine if there were an easily preventable disease causing ~40000 deaths every year that would actually save us money to solve and help the climate situation as well. Would you ask to temper the rhetoric?

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#162

Post by microtherion » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 7:16 PM UTC

onreact wrote: post #90

Yeah, I live in Berlin and we have an increasing number of car free zones here where people can move around without being afraid of getting killed. Even children play outside again in such areas without risking their life. Not to mention the lack of noise, pollution and clogged up space with parking cars. Cafes thrive and people stroll around to spend their time and money. Businesses return from the outskirts etc. It…

I would picture a Berlin drug dealer as being perfectly comfortable riding a bicycle.

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#163

Post by ogre_codes » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 7:27 PM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #157

ogre_codes wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bike costs less than $500 once and reliably gets you several miles fairly quickly. eBikes get you further faster and are also a fraction of the cost to own/ operate than a car.

And in the winter you're cold, in the summer you're sweaty, and in the rain you're wet. It's not like people buy cars because they want to waste money. A car is an absolutely massive increase in QOL, especially for the majority of Americans who dont live in city centers and who don't want to live in city centers.

> A car is an absolutely massive increase in QOL

When you build cities which requires cars to get around then owning a car is almost essential. When a city is built around other forms of transportation, not so much. All the insurmountable problems like rain and sun happen in the places where bikes are common, it turns out people are just fine without their cars when the infrastructure is good enough.

The big problem with car friendly infrastructure is it takes up so much space, it makes almost every other form of transportation more dangerous and slower.

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#164

Post by AcerbicZero » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 7:33 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #120

adimitrov wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: why? It seems patently absurd to me, especially when you're visiting. I'm visiting Berlin right now. It's a car friendly city in a car friendly country and I wouldn't want to drive anywhere here if you paid me. Too much of a hassle. Besides driving is so incredibly boring. If you're visiting, you're not going to really experience the city from behind the windows of a metal box. Maybe Northern America…

Public transit, if you're not acclimated to it, is absurd. Coming from outside the area, I'd have to pay to park (including time spent trying to find a decent spot), walk a non-trivial distance to the station, coordinate movement of multiple people (including young children) amid crowds, wait for transit arrival, board, find seat (!), wait, stop at every station before exit, switch transit multiple times (repeat wait…

The comments so far don't seem to be very generous to your position, but honestly I can agree with at least some of your points. I basically refuse to ride buses these days due to the experiences I've had on them, as well as their overcrowded nature since the world has decided to really stick with this 8-5 schedule, and I dislike the idea of being jostled around while the junkie next to me tries to cook his spoon.

I do however, love a good light rail system, although even the best of them seem to suffer the same 8-5 cattle car problem. The light rail system in Portland had its fair share of weirdo's and whatnot, but it was easy to plan, easy to use, and even when crowded pretty friendly. Plus the rest of the city is "fairly" walkable, so if I didn't feel like getting stuck on a train I could just take a longer stroll.

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#165

Post by Balanceinfinity » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 7:38 PM UTC

Some cities simply can't do this, such as Los Angeles, Dallas, and Atlanta. It's not in their DNA. Things are simply too far apart and the infrastructure couldn't hold it. Other cities are moving toward "no cars" by simply allowing gridlock to make driving a car worthless. I visit NYC very often, and we used to take cabs all the time. Now, we never do, unless we have so much luggage we can't manage - it's a nightmare getting a cab through Manhattan. They might as well close most of Broadway, it's just a quagmire.

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#166

Post by ctdonath » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 7:45 PM UTC

burfog wrote: post #158

benrbray wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, right now our cars-first city planning means that things like groceries, schools, shopping centers, etc. are built far away from where people live so that you NEED a car to get there. Places like CityLab are advocating for future development that places these daily necessities within walking distance of where people live. Cars are great for long-distance travel, but it would be great to spend less time…

That is mainly a density issue. Most people don't like density. At an ordinary population density, supermarkets are about 2 to 5 miles from each other, which is probably 3 to 7 miles by road. Large stores require many customers in order to remain in business. If supermarkets are closer, then they lose efficiency. Prices must be higher. Variety drops; you'll get just 2 types of cheese and 1 type of apple if the stores…

Well put.

Couple days ago I literally counted >100 varieties of marinara spaghetti sauce in the store. There's no way a walking-distance grocery is going to carry anywhere close to that (ripple effect on to all the people employed in making each specialty) AND do so at Walmart prices.

I live close to the grocery, and there's still no way I'm going to carry supplies for 4 that far (recall as a child doing similar with my mother, that was quite a trek made possible in part by not having a job).

Y'all who want pervasive public transit and no cars, yes I see your point - and really don't want to live that way. Do as you like, just don't do it in a way that compels non-urban living to comply. 'scuze me now, I have to get the kids from school - driving them because herds of children on mass transit is a haven for bullies.

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#167

Post by oarabbus_ » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 7:49 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #49

tzs wrote: post #45

> When asked what they like most about a city they have visited [...] It's the people who live there you need to ask. People visiting a city generally have different goals and different constraints than people who live there.

If I can't drive to near my destination, I'll not likely visit that city.

Well, that only excludes you from every premiere city in the world.

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#168

Post by majewsky » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 7:56 PM UTC

AcerbicZero wrote: post #164

ctdonath wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public transit, if you're not acclimated to it, is absurd. Coming from outside the area, I'd have to pay to park (including time spent trying to find a decent spot), walk a non-trivial distance to the station, coordinate movement of multiple people (including young children) amid crowds, wait for transit arrival, board, find seat (!), wait, stop at every station before exit, switch transit multiple times (repeat wait…

The comments so far don't seem to be very generous to your position, but honestly I can agree with at least some of your points. I basically refuse to ride buses these days due to the experiences I've had on them, as well as their overcrowded nature since the world has decided to really stick with this 8-5 schedule, and I dislike the idea of being jostled around while the junkie next to me tries to cook his spoon. I…

> first paragraph

It's hilarious how you can tell from those comments which people come from USA or from Europe. These experiences sound like bad fiction to my German ears (except for the overcrowding during rush hours, which public transit is affected by just as much as car traffic).

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#169

Post by bradlys » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 7:57 PM UTC

maxander wrote: post #151

curioussavage wrote: post #141

Not in the suburbs... cheap automated taxis are a way more realistic idea for reducing traffic. Not just for last mile either. Switching transportation in the middle of a trip even once wastes a ton of time and adds hassle.

> Switching transportation in the middle of a trip even once wastes a ton of time and adds hassle. Does it? When driving into Boston, I’ve found it almost always better to park in a big garage on the edge of town and ride a bus/subway in, rather than spend ~20 minutes looking for parking near my destination (or paying for one of the massively more expensive in-town garages.)

It varies a lot. In my experience - it takes a lot of time to switch because the parking lots aren't always directly next to boarding on the train. Getting in and out of those lots can be a nightmare if it's a busy time too. (This is why you'll see people running to get to their car as soon as the train starts deboarding - they want to avoid the traffic in the lot!) So, naturally, you need to add a buffer in for parking, getting to the station, making sure you paid for a ticket, etc. This is an automatic show up early. And then the damn train is NEVER on time except when you show up late to the lot... then it's so on time that you miss it and have to wait 30 minutes or an hour for the next train.

You might spend 20 minutes looking for parking but that usually indicates unfamiliarity with parking in the area. That happens maybe the first or second time visiting a place. After that - you know what has high to low availability and you'll go to streets that optimize for availability + distance.

I really think switching is terrible and it's why I don't do it. I live in the bay area and avoid taking public transit here because it's horribly behind time except at the starting destinations and the infrequency of trains coming by is why I don't ride almost ever anymore.

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#170

Post by ogre_codes » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 8:09 PM UTC

allovernow wrote: post #47

ogre_codes wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the technological and class divide will only widen. Car friendly infrastructure widens the technological and class divide. They create a base state where you are required to own and maintain an expensive piece of equipment in order to be an equal member of society. You are required to have parking for those cars, both at home and at your work. Forcing people to pay thousands of dollars per year to participate in so…

>Car friendly infrastructure widens the technological and class divide. They create a base state where you are required to own and maintain an expensive piece of equipment in order to be an equal member of society. Great, so if we can't all have something, none of us should have it! Forget the fact that the vast majority of families own and benefit from personal transportation, the important thing is that we're all e…

> The nature of modern civilization is such that some degree of inequality is inevitable if one optimizes for median welfare.

I just can't get over how dystopian this comment is. Aside from being untrue, it is just horribly wrong headed and borderline evil. Essentially you are suggesting we cement the bottom quartile of society into eternal poverty.

Not only is this cruel, it is ultimately terrible for society as a whole as the poor and homeless become increasingly desperate, and turn to crime and drugs; becoming an ever-increasing burden on society.