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S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

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Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#201

Read an idea in American Affairs in support of taxing buybacks. The logic goes that if all companies have a fiduciary duty to shareholders because the market is the most efficient capital allocator, AND all companies are giving their cash back to shareholders, THEN it must be true that the market can not figure out how to efficiently allocate this $1T of capital. Thus, the government should have “next dibs” for items…

At the very minimum it should be taxed the same as dividends. Essentially tax buybacks are a tax loophole for giving money back to the shareholder.

I don't remember what section of the IRS code or regulations cover it, but there are rules to prevent disguising a dividend as a stock buyback. They provide a good illustration of why the tax code is complicated.

(All numbers in the following are made up).

Some major company a long time ago was going to pay out a dividend, and then their accountants had a great idea. Instead of a dividend, they would first do 100 for 99 stock split. Then they would do a 1% stock buyback. The shareholders would be taxed at capital gains rates instead of ordinary income rates on this.

Note that for any shareholder, the result afterward is that for every 99 shared they owned before the split and buyback they still own 99 shares. No one's actual percentage ownership of the company has changed--but they have received money from the company.

The code and/or regulations were updated to fix this. But then buybacks that were not hidden dividends were getting classified as ordinary income, too, and so further code and/or regulation changes were made to further refine this.

What it eventually ended up with is rules that looked at how ownership was distributed among the shareholders before the buyback and after the buyback, and decided if it was a disguised dividend or a legitimate buyback based on how that distribution changed.

(I haven't followed tax law for several years. Anyone happen to know if this is still there after the Trump tax changes?)

This sort of thing is a large part of why tax codes and regulations tend to be big and complicated. Even if they start out fairly simple, people find holes like that split/buyback trick, and closing those holes adds complexity. The result is that you only generally will see either very simple tax systems (like sales taxes) or very complex systems. Systems that start out in between end up moving toward very complex.

Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#202
post #12

Large US corporations have been buying back their own stock in record amounts, while investors have been cashing out of US stocks at a record pace , recent data shows: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/investors-bail-on-st... -- money is not being plowed back into IPOs, secondary offerings, etc. According to orthodox economic theory , large US corporations must be buying back stock with earned profits and new d…

> In reality, executives and directors could very well be authorizing stock buy-backs to keep share prices up so their stock options remain in-the-money for as long as possible. If that's the case, the buybacks are meant more for the benefit of executives and directors than for the benefit of the business or its shareholders.

This plan shouldn't work because buybacks shouldn't cause stocks to rise unless the market thinks they're a good idea. For example, if a company with 1 million shares is worth $90 million and has $10 million of cash on top of that, then each share will be worth $100. If it uses that cash to buy shares it will be able to get 100 thousand of them, so it will become a $90 million company with 900 thousand shares. Each share is still worth $100.

Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not profits but debt. With the ultra-low interest rates of the last ten years, companies could finance bonds at rates just above inflation. However, instead of using those funds to grow the business (e.g. R&D), they simple bought back shares, increasing the price of the stock.

Can you cite? What companies are using debt to finance repurchases? Also the person you responded to probably meant that they profit in a technical bookkeeping sense not. You can still have profit while having debt and profit will be taxed in a certain way.

https://fortune.com/2019/08/20/stock-buybacks-debt-financed/ https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/29/buybacks-companies-increasin...

Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#204
post #157

This supports Peter Theil's theory that innovation has stagnated. When companies give their profits back to the shareholders instead of investing in continued innovation, because they can't figure out a way to innovate with that capital. The world needs more Elon Musk type of entrepreneurs.

I agree wholeheartedly. The whole world seems to be in a consolidation phase where every innovation from before 2010 is being milked dry (see iPhone derivatives, streaming services, Lithium-ion tech, carbon composites, airliner designs :P, etc...) but very little new tech is being invested in outside of academia (and even within academia sometimes...). Everyone has figured out it's more profitable to rehash existing ideas instead of take a risk and markets are encouraging it. Want more profit? Buy your competitors instead of invest in some moonshots. We've become very complacent as a society.

Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#205
post #12

Large US corporations have been buying back their own stock in record amounts, while investors have been cashing out of US stocks at a record pace , recent data shows: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/investors-bail-on-st... -- money is not being plowed back into IPOs, secondary offerings, etc. According to orthodox economic theory , large US corporations must be buying back stock with earned profits and new d…

yup, this is taught in MBA programs as a classic example of a moral hazard/principle agent problem. executives are offloading downside risk to shareholders and locking in profits for themselves.

one way to discourage such behavior is the lengthen the time horizons of performance incentives like stock grants and bonuses (to, say, 7 years).

Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#206
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't understand about this is... Why can't I partake? If my employer is based out of these havens for tax purposes, why can't they pay "me" by paying into the bank account of the foreign on-paper-only company I own, whose line of credit with a foreign bank I then use for my own expenses? I feel like this must be against the law somehow, but I don't quite understand where the line is.

It's not against the law at all. It's just expensive because you forgo labor protections, social security contributions, medicare contributions, paying for accountant's time to file for international income, etc. Wages are taxed differently than a company's income. If you were to distribute the income to yourself every 2 weeks, you'd end up paying all the same taxes as wages.

"Wages are taxed differently than a company's income."

Which is why a country like Belgium can be a Tax Haven for companies and have the world's highest income tax at the same time.

Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#207
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying back stock only creates value for shareholders if the stock is trading for less than its intrinsic value. Above that price buybacks destroy shareholder value. Executives are doing this to meet performance targets and get bonuses. Not to allocate capital efficiently.

I don't think I can follow your argument. What's intrinsic value? The market is supposed to arrive at a fair value for a stock (and there's no reason to assume it doesn't because that would create arbitrage opportunities). If you buyback at the fair value no shareholder value is created or destroyed, the only change is in the ownership of the assets and future dividends.

The market is frequently irrational. Short squeezes, news cycles, macro economic events, etc can cause a stock to diverge from a reasonable calculation of its discounted future earnings. In short, the efficient market hypothesis is incorrect. It's why value investors like Warren Buffett have been able to get rich buying underpriced stocks. It isn't all that unusual for stocks to double or halve during the course of a year. Acknowledging this is why Berkshire is authorized to buy back stock only up to a certain multiple of book value. More companies should follow suit.

Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your data does not say what you are claiming it says. It is possible (or even probable) for the ultra-wealthy to have retirement accounts. Once we admit that, then the obvious question becomes: Who do you think owns most of the money in those retirement accounts, the rich or the poor?

Since the ultra-wealthy are by definition a small portion of the population, and retirement contributions are capped at a low annual rate, it does in fact make the point that the parent commenter is trying to.

[deleted]

Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#209
post #52

Every time i read these threads i feel criminally incompetent in finance. You would think that putting your money to work for you would be incentive enough to dig deep, but i don’t seem to have the mental stamina to figure it all out. There’s probably a latent fear that I’ll also realize just how much money i haven’t made and regret that too. I need a course or something that i can walk into with $20k or whatever and…

The game wasn't designed for you and me. It was designed for the ones that can take advantage of it with massive amounts of cash, connections, and staff to exploit it for them. Bet on the companies to figure it out for themselves and just stick to index funds over the long haul. That way at least you're not playing a game that was designed to take your money.

this is good advice but also ordinary people should be able to understand why the economy is breaking. most economists treat it as a mystical thing only they can divine the meaning of, so it can be pretty hard to find clearly written stuff for lay people.

Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#210

Read an idea in American Affairs in support of taxing buybacks. The logic goes that if all companies have a fiduciary duty to shareholders because the market is the most efficient capital allocator, AND all companies are giving their cash back to shareholders, THEN it must be true that the market can not figure out how to efficiently allocate this $1T of capital. Thus, the government should have “next dibs” for items…

> THEN it must be true that the market can not figure out how to efficiently allocate this $1T of capital.

You're essentially saying companies are choosing to do the wrong thing with their money therefore we're entitled to seize it. If that were a compelling argument, why wouldn't we treat individuals the same? And who do you think stock prices affect, with virtually all of society in the stock market either directly or through pension funds?

By keeping interest rates artificially low, stock buybacks are more appealing than capital investment or labor force expansion. It's simply a logical outcome of the policy our government is pursuing.

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