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Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

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Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#201

Post by soulofmischief »

quackback wrote: post #139
yters wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a good experience at undergrad, but that was due to its divergence from the norm. It actually gave me the broader perspective by having me read thousands of pages of the primary literature for the Western canon, along with in depth critical group discussions of the texts, and learning to write coherent papers. Nothing in my CS degree impacted my life, except making me marketable. Much of the CS I could have pic…

This seems to be a very unpopular thought within CS culture and I find that really unfortunate. It feels like people are rushing to reduce their education, their lives, to optimized market interactions and that's a terrible lens for a human life. There may be an argument that it's a method of successfully navigating our society, thus enriching one's personal or familial existence, but it seems to me that would just l…

It's a side effect of no safety net, knowing that the slightest mishap could put you into crippling debt. To stand still but for a moment is to be trampled by the masses.

By the time you are in a financially stable situation, old habits are ingrained.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#202

Post by JakeTheAndroid »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #96
yters wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

University is a total racket. We pay these institutions to be treated like their low level employees to provide job training for companies. Corporations have successfully offloaded their training responsibilities onto a process that used to be much broader than vocational training.

And if you try to study some of those broader topics, you're a sucker - don't study philosophy when an extra accounting or STEM course would be a "better" use of your time. So you super specialize and then after 4 years of college and 5 years in industry you're burnt out you have few other skills, so the only option is to get back onto the education treadmill to bet on another highly specific vocation where you once…

I think this is really dependent on your choice of field to enter into. In the tech space, so many engineers didn't major or necessarily even take CS courses in college. I have interviewed and hired plenty of people with diverse colligate focuses.

Sure, CS or STEM courses are probably really solid to pair with a non-CS major because it teaches you stuff that helps extend your abilities in your own field. So I can see why my friend that was going to school to be a nurse might have wanted to take a CS course or two instead of minoring in sociology.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#203

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

leshow wrote: post #165
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you try to study some of those broader topics, you're a sucker - don't study philosophy when an extra accounting or STEM course would be a "better" use of your time. So you super specialize and then after 4 years of college and 5 years in industry you're burnt out you have few other skills, so the only option is to get back onto the education treadmill to bet on another highly specific vocation where you once…

This is a very pessimistic world view. I found in the engineering faculty that the subjects we were taught were very broad. However, I continued to learn on my own in my free time after I got my degree. I've been doing this consistently for the last 8 years or so. I now have completely new skills and much more depth on knowledge on CS topics than I had coming out of university.

I'm a bit confused what you're arguing against in my point - you continue to super specialize in your off time. If you wanted to switch vocations from something in the CS domain, how much of what you now know and have self-taught would apply?

At my university engineers were offered two elective courses in the faculty of arts or sciences. That's not a particularly broad education.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#204

Post by nogabebop23 »

Braggadocious wrote: post #171
yters wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a good experience at undergrad, but that was due to its divergence from the norm. It actually gave me the broader perspective by having me read thousands of pages of the primary literature for the Western canon, along with in depth critical group discussions of the texts, and learning to write coherent papers. Nothing in my CS degree impacted my life, except making me marketable. Much of the CS I could have pic…

I like how a liberal arts education is "divergent from the norm" now. The primary function of university is to make people read for four years. Business degrees, CS degrees, essentially job training programs are a bastardization of the institution.

I think the classic ideal of a liberal arts degree is awesome... as a second or mid-life degree. The option to read and think in-depth and breadth seems to have more potential once you've lived a little more than the average 18-yr-old, just because you tend to have more experiences and viewpoints than a high school grad heading to uni.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#205

Post by nogabebop23 »

alxlaz wrote: post #155
Mountain_Skies wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're correct but the difficulty is finding an alternative. Training employees who are then free to take their skills to another company that didn't bother with training gives that company the ability to lure workers away with higher salaries. There is a bit of tragedy of the commons in the skilled labor pool.

There is an old adage about this: Q: What happens if we provide education and training to our employees and they leave? A: Well, what happens if we don't, and they stay ? Growing a company's knowledge and skill base is an investment, not charity. Companies that don't do it reap exactly what they sow -- they're the same companies whose CEOs will otherwise loudly complain about how difficult it is to find skilled emplo…

HR loves to trot out this saying, attributing it to the enlightened CEO or such. In my experience it's about 50-50 if someone stays because we offer advanced training or leverages their new skills to get a new job.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#206

Post by hueving »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #96
yters wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

University is a total racket. We pay these institutions to be treated like their low level employees to provide job training for companies. Corporations have successfully offloaded their training responsibilities onto a process that used to be much broader than vocational training.

And if you try to study some of those broader topics, you're a sucker - don't study philosophy when an extra accounting or STEM course would be a "better" use of your time. So you super specialize and then after 4 years of college and 5 years in industry you're burnt out you have few other skills, so the only option is to get back onto the education treadmill to bet on another highly specific vocation where you once…

Most STEM courses aren't vocational training and aren't super specialized. I think you might have a biased negative view for what STEM courses are?

Edit: Let me state it a different way that might shed more light on my point. A CS major can pass all of his/her classes with a perfect GPA and still be incapable of writing software ready for a production system (even at small scale).

The STEM degrees emphasize fundamentals that are rarely (if ever) used in day-to-day "real jobs".

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#207

Post by nogabebop23 »

danbr wrote: post #104
Braggadocious wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ever think about how much we subsidize businesses by paying for college ourselves? The older I get the more I think the university to corporation pipeline is a fucking racket. It also sucks for employees because here comes these kids who were allowed to learn about all the new technologies you wish you knew with zero distractions and other obligations, now comin' in hot on your heels to take yer jobs en masse, an…

Plumbers and electricians don’t go to school for multiple years to learn a trade, they apprentice - learning on the job, until they get to the point where they propel themselves forward.

they apprentice after become a [trade]-apprentice. If you're brand new you go to school & do a mix of lab work and on-the-job placements.

The key (which I think you're making) is that once you're an apprentice you learn by doing and get paid.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#208

Post by TacoToni »

czechdeveloper wrote: post #53
runninganyways wrote: post #23

This is one of the reasons I quit programming. I could be spending time improving as a developer but instead they've got me doing some totally inconsequential "bug" fix (spend the next two hours updating this translation for the third time). I just got sick of someone rationalizing me doing non work by saying it's better for the business as though I have no broader perspective of what might be better for the business…

Can I ask what you do now? I'm programming for one and half decade and wonder about moving to something else. But it's bit scary as software is only thing I know.

Ha I’m in the same boat at my finance job. Looking to move into software dev and go back to school, but scared because I’m paid well and I have to start over again.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#209

Post by naniwaduni »

hueving wrote: post #206
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you try to study some of those broader topics, you're a sucker - don't study philosophy when an extra accounting or STEM course would be a "better" use of your time. So you super specialize and then after 4 years of college and 5 years in industry you're burnt out you have few other skills, so the only option is to get back onto the education treadmill to bet on another highly specific vocation where you once…

Most STEM courses aren't vocational training and aren't super specialized. I think you might have a biased negative view for what STEM courses are? Edit: Let me state it a different way that might shed more light on my point. A CS major can pass all of his/her classes with a perfect GPA and still be incapable of writing software ready for a production system (even at small scale). The STEM degrees emphasize fundament…

Hell, most of S&M is about maximally far from "vocational" training.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#210

Post by randomidiot666 »

sethammons wrote: post #135
WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, HR is in charge of 'professional development'. Noone wants to fight HR and would rather keep their cushy job, get paid and let this thing crater.

Unfortunately, that is when, as a team, you have to not classify things certain ways. Still meet your commitments, but bake in learning time. It just becomes part of what you do during the sprint. Likewise, you should not have a "testing time", "quality", or "security" budget - you just bake those into how the team operates.

^ This is the way. Learn how to sell it or hide it from those HR parasites.
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