Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm • Hacker News Board

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#121

Post by mikestew » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

wcarron wrote: post #104

tomtheelder wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly fine, sometimes a problem. It's pretty much like regular bikes (or cars for that matter): some might not work well if there is significant snow/ice, but then you will just need one that is suitable for those sort of conditions. The scooter companies are putting out very low end models that aren't designed for any sort of adverse conditions, and they are scared of lawsuits/blowback from accidents. This sort of…

I hope e-scooters never make it out of infancy. Bikes are infinitely more practical and capable. They are more stable at all speeds. They can have significantly more cargo carrying capacity. Bikes can be fitted (for the most part) with different tires/wheels to handle adverse conditions more easily than a scooter can. I hope for the infanticide of e-scooter transportation. It's a grotesque, subooptimal solution than…

I have several examples of both, and ride them to work and shopping. And I completely agree with you. Scooters are a hoot to ride, and if I don’t have to carry more than my backpack will hold, I’d rather commute on the scooter.

But you need both hands, making even signaling a chore, and you can only carry what fits on your back. Scooters are no more difficult to ride than a bicycle, but they are much more difficult to ride safely than a bicycle. Compare to my electric bike with front and rear racks, a rack trunk, and a comfy seat and coffee cup holder.

Scooters pack small, that’s about the only utilitarian plus they have going IMO.

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#122

Post by coldtea » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 5:55 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #49

tzs wrote: post #45

> When asked what they like most about a city they have visited [...] It's the people who live there you need to ask. People visiting a city generally have different goals and different constraints than people who live there.

If I can't drive to near my destination, I'll not likely visit that city.

And yet, cities which are mostly made for walking and public transport or even discourage cars are among the most widely visited (including Amsterdam and New Amsterdam aka NYC) and most loved, and cities which you only get around by car are mostly US backwaters...

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#123

Post by big_chungus » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 5:55 PM UTC

dashundchen wrote: post #97

big_chungus wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but I also don't want to live like a sardine in a can, packed in with millions of others, living in a small box, having no green space, etc. I'm generally a social person, but don't like living that close to that many people. Many others seem to agree.

There are livable and afforable alternative to Manhattan style density and there are plenty of working examples. We just refuse to build that way. Look at many continental European cities. A mid-sized German city will be full of low to mid density buildings and walk up apartments, few skyscrapers. Mixed use of retail and residential, and very good transit by American standards, connecting to intercity rail transit. H…

That's not low-density. Maybe not everywhere is as bad as Manhattan, but that is indeed very dense. Note that you twice described your ideal solution as dense:

"a dense mix of single family homes, shops and apartments"

"a healthy mix of uses and density centered around transit."

Not a big fan of that kind of density, nor are many others. I'd at least like to have my own backyard, and not have my neighbors peering in from a second story.

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#124

Post by coldtea » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 5:56 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #120

adimitrov wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: why? It seems patently absurd to me, especially when you're visiting. I'm visiting Berlin right now. It's a car friendly city in a car friendly country and I wouldn't want to drive anywhere here if you paid me. Too much of a hassle. Besides driving is so incredibly boring. If you're visiting, you're not going to really experience the city from behind the windows of a metal box. Maybe Northern America…

Public transit, if you're not acclimated to it, is absurd. Coming from outside the area, I'd have to pay to park (including time spent trying to find a decent spot), walk a non-trivial distance to the station, coordinate movement of multiple people (including young children) amid crowds, wait for transit arrival, board, find seat (!), wait, stop at every station before exit, switch transit multiple times (repeat wait…

>Public transit, if you're not acclimated to it, is absurd. Coming from outside the area, I'd have to pay to park (including time spent trying to find a decent spot), walk a non-trivial distance to the station, coordinate movement of multiple people (including young children) amid crowds, wait for transit arrival, board, find seat (!), wait, stop at every station before exit, switch transit multiple times (repeat wait/board/sit/wait), be in close proximity with strange/unpleasant/criminal people, finally walk considerable distance to destination ...

Oh, the humanity... All this sounds like someone perfectly able but going around in a power chair describing the "horrors" of walking around...

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#125

Post by Sharlin » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 5:56 PM UTC

pif wrote: post #6

spats1990 wrote: post #5

The average U.S. car carries an average of 1.56 people and weighs an average, for new cars, of almost two tons.

Yes, and ... ? What's exactly your point?

The point is, of course, that it’s one of the least efficient modes of transport ever devised, while at the same time there are more people around than ever before. That’s an absurd equation.

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#126

Post by big_chungus » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 5:57 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #57

kevinqiu1 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a Western context with our property situation perhaps but look at Japan. 91% of the population lives in an urban area and even in the most desirable metropolis Tokyo it is relatively affordable: https://www.curbed.com/2017/2/3/14496248/tokyo-real-estate-a... Not every city in the world has to be like New York or San Francisco. Cars should be banned (more or less) in cities. And it should viable for someone to live…

It's expensive to live in a city that's 40% asphalt to move cars around and park cars in. You basically need to pay 40% more for the same living space, since you don't really pay for the moving space. Great way for car companies to force externalities onto everyone else. Don't like cars? "Oh well, you're paying for the road and parking anyway. You can't beat the problem, so you may as well join it."

If induced demand is a problem for cars, might it not be a problem for cities? A higher potential density will lead to a higher density.

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#127

Post by tachyonbeam » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 5:59 PM UTC

amwelles wrote: post #41

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do those work in winter? We had electric scooters, but they were all scooped up by their parent companies in October ahead of the coming months of hell.

With the right gear, cycling in winter isn’t bad at all, provided the path is clear.

Anecdotal, but I've ridden a bike in winter only once. There was a lot of melted snow "slush". I almost slipped twice. One of those two times, I was right in front of a car when my back wheel slid off to the side, and I caught myself from falling just in time. I've never done it again, it seems suicidal to me. It was a mountain-style bike, and I would have assumed the tires had enough grip. I'm sure you can pick up tricks and get better at this with experience, but it seems at least an order of magnitude more dangerous than summer time biking.

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#128

Post by ogre_codes » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 6:01 PM UTC

allovernow wrote: post #47

ogre_codes wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the technological and class divide will only widen. Car friendly infrastructure widens the technological and class divide. They create a base state where you are required to own and maintain an expensive piece of equipment in order to be an equal member of society. You are required to have parking for those cars, both at home and at your work. Forcing people to pay thousands of dollars per year to participate in so…

>Car friendly infrastructure widens the technological and class divide. They create a base state where you are required to own and maintain an expensive piece of equipment in order to be an equal member of society. Great, so if we can't all have something, none of us should have it! Forget the fact that the vast majority of families own and benefit from personal transportation, the important thing is that we're all e…

> Great, so if we can't all have something, none of us should have it!

This is a false dichotomy. I didn't suggest "Everyone must give up cars", only that the world should not be designed to FORCE everyone to drive cars.

> Is it also repressive to "force" people to hold down jobs to participate in society?

Hyperbole much? The two concepts aren't even remotely related.

> I do not understand how people can be so focused on equality as to totally ignore the average, greater good.

As if requiring cars is the greater good? It has been demonstrated in many many places that designing infrastructure which enables people to move around safely and reliably without the use of cars improves the quality of life for everyone.

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#129

Post by tharne » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 6:02 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #88

dahfizz wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is over 3x as population dense as the USA. Any plan to make the USA transportation system to look like the EU's is doomed to failure from the beginning. You need to be realistic. You are never going to win hearts and minds by railing against cars - Americans love their cars, and for good reason. A bus is not going to pick you up at your front door the second you walk out, and it's not going to drop you directl…

How about we just stop subsidizing the shit out of cars? Let them pay their own way. Also, we do not need 'one size fits all' solutions for the entire US. What's appropriate for Wyoming might not be appropriate for the California Bay Area, which is plenty dense.

They already do pay their own way. Gas taxes, tolls, vehicle registration, emissions fees, license fees, premium taxes on car insurance, traffic tickets, parking tickets, parking meters, sales tax on the purchase of a car. Very few things in the United States are taxed as exhaustively as private vehicles.

I'm not sure when "subsidizing" came to mean "giving people something back for the money you took form them in the first place".

I'd love to see a less auto-dependent society, but it's not accurate to say that drivers are subsidized. Perhaps one answer would be to get rid these myriad taxes and fees and just privatize the highways - make it fee for use. Right now, very few drivers ever see the true cost of their transportation choices because it's a little bit here, a little there, and so on.

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#130

Post by glofish » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 6:03 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #120

adimitrov wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: why? It seems patently absurd to me, especially when you're visiting. I'm visiting Berlin right now. It's a car friendly city in a car friendly country and I wouldn't want to drive anywhere here if you paid me. Too much of a hassle. Besides driving is so incredibly boring. If you're visiting, you're not going to really experience the city from behind the windows of a metal box. Maybe Northern America…

Public transit, if you're not acclimated to it, is absurd. Coming from outside the area, I'd have to pay to park (including time spent trying to find a decent spot), walk a non-trivial distance to the station, coordinate movement of multiple people (including young children) amid crowds, wait for transit arrival, board, find seat (!), wait, stop at every station before exit, switch transit multiple times (repeat wait…

Wait, you forgot the bit where you are stuck in downtown traffic for hours and you can't find a parking space near the location of where you are going. Then, what if you want to go to multiple places a day, each a mile or two away, the whole ordeal repeats.

It has nothing to do with acclimation - many European cities cannot operate in a car-dependent manner.

As for being in close proximity to strange/unpleasant/criminals ... that's the American thinking. Yes, there are many places in America where getting a bus is very troubling, stinks, dirty ugly etc.

But then there are plenty of public transportations options in Europe and elsewhere that are almost free (for a day's parking you can travel for a week on every mode of transport), clean, fast, efficient, not crowded. Incomparably simpler, easier and better than driving - especially if you are going a mile or two away.