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S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

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141–150 of 402 posts

Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#141

Read an idea in American Affairs in support of taxing buybacks. The logic goes that if all companies have a fiduciary duty to shareholders because the market is the most efficient capital allocator, AND all companies are giving their cash back to shareholders, THEN it must be true that the market can not figure out how to efficiently allocate this $1T of capital. Thus, the government should have “next dibs” for items…

At the very minimum it should be taxed the same as dividends. Essentially tax buybacks are a tax loophole for giving money back to the shareholder.

Buybacks are effectively taxed at the same rate as dividends, at least qualified dividends, just timing differs:

Simple case with a corporation worth $200 with two equal shareholders, who each paid $100 for their half of the company and are in 20% capital gains tax bracket, ignoring net investment tax of 3.8%:

Dividends:

Corporation pays $100 in qualified dividends, $50 to each shareholder. Each shareholder pays their capital gains tax rate on the $50. If that rate is 20% for each, then a total of $20 is collected by the US Treasury. Each shareholder then reinvests or spends the remaining $80 in the economy, while the government puts the $20 to work.

Buy Back Case:

Corporation buys back $100 of shares from 1 shareholder. No taxes were due there as there were no capital gains for shareholder 1. Shareholder 2 now owns 100% of the corporation, so their investment is now, all other thing equal, worth $200. When shareholder 2 sells, a bill for $20 is due ( $100 in capital gains x capital gains rate ). Shareholder 1 reinvests/spends $100 in economy, government gets no additional cash now, but will eventually when Shareholder 2 sells.

In the end, government gets the same $20 in tax. Benefits of the buy back are that investors are able to choose whether or not they want to cash out, whereas a dividend forces it on all investors. Downside is that government has to wait for the $20 in capital gains taxes. However, if shareholder 1 owed capital gains on the buy back ( perhaps they bought their share for $50, so would owe $10 in the $50 it made on the sale ), the government would get $10 from that sale + $20 down the road when shareholder 2 sold.

Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#142
post #12

Large US corporations have been buying back their own stock in record amounts, while investors have been cashing out of US stocks at a record pace , recent data shows: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/investors-bail-on-st... -- money is not being plowed back into IPOs, secondary offerings, etc. According to orthodox economic theory , large US corporations must be buying back stock with earned profits and new d…

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Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#143

Read an idea in American Affairs in support of taxing buybacks. The logic goes that if all companies have a fiduciary duty to shareholders because the market is the most efficient capital allocator, AND all companies are giving their cash back to shareholders, THEN it must be true that the market can not figure out how to efficiently allocate this $1T of capital. Thus, the government should have “next dibs” for items…

$1T would be enough seed money to get an international effort moving to solve climate change using emissions targets, ferrous phytoplankton seeding like IRONEX I and/or kelp blooming/capture/sequestration. Much cheaper than the inflated numbers thrown around as arguments for doing nothing / delaying longer that ignore the $200+ trillion destroyed by doing nothing. Deny -> extinction Complain about costs -> extinction…

I have never heard of extinction as a possible consequence of climate change. Care to elaborate how that might be possible? Even if society crumbles due to unrest, the Earth will be inhabitable in at least some areas. It's hard to imagine that every single human being on Earth will die.

Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#144
post #53

Read an idea in American Affairs in support of taxing buybacks. The logic goes that if all companies have a fiduciary duty to shareholders because the market is the most efficient capital allocator, AND all companies are giving their cash back to shareholders, THEN it must be true that the market can not figure out how to efficiently allocate this $1T of capital. Thus, the government should have “next dibs” for items…

The buyback money presumably is the money after corporate tax so it has gone through one round of taxation. The stock holders selling the stock will pay capital gain tax again, so the money will go through another round of tax.

I think the money is often debt, which would make it untaxed.

Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#145
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this entirely. If you tried to tax buybacks, you'd likely be inadvertently taxing a ton of the corporate infrastructure used for administrative purposes. In this case, the buyback is clearly like a tax-advantaged dividend, but with a key difference: it's not liquid. Dividends cross that critical threshold of spendable cash that triggers taxation.

I don't. If only 20 widgetshares exists in the world and we each have 50% (you have 10 and I have 10) and the market for widgetshares is $200. Should you be taxed for your theoretical $5.26 gain if I destroy 1 widgetshare but you haven't sold any. Buy backs are no different. You will pay taxes if you sell. Personally, I think you should pay taxes if you take out a loan using the market value of the shares as collater…

Why not just fix inheritance issues?

At the time of death, either make the estate pay capital gains taxes on the market value of the assets, or just don't give the heirs a stepped-up basis. It will catch up eventually.

Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$1T would be enough seed money to get an international effort moving to solve climate change using emissions targets, ferrous phytoplankton seeding like IRONEX I and/or kelp blooming/capture/sequestration. Much cheaper than the inflated numbers thrown around as arguments for doing nothing / delaying longer that ignore the $200+ trillion destroyed by doing nothing. Deny -> extinction Complain about costs -> extinction…

I have never heard of extinction as a possible consequence of climate change. Care to elaborate how that might be possible? Even if society crumbles due to unrest, the Earth will be inhabitable in at least some areas. It's hard to imagine that every single human being on Earth will die.

> I have never heard of extinction as a possible consequence of climate change

If things get nasty, the nuclear-armed folk might just light up the 14,000 nukes lying around.

That could do it.

Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't make any sense. The market is the most efficient capital allocator because shareholders are the market, not companies. Companies are giving their cash back to shareholders because each individual company thinks their shareholders can better allocate the cash, rather than the companies themselves. This is equally true for both buybacks and dividends. This is because most companies have no wish to operate…

> Companies are giving their cash back to shareholders because each individual company thinks their shareholders can better allocate the cash, rather than the companies themselves. _This_ doesn't make any sense. Companies don't think. They're legal entities that are controlled by a small group of people. This group of people can decide that they would prefer to do share buybacks to meet their own performance targets.

Five facts, and one generally-held assumption:

Fact 1. Companies’ brains (for this level of executive decision-making) are their boards of directors.

Fact 2. Boards of directors are made up of people elected by shareholders.

Fact 3. “Making the shareholders money” (either through dividends or equity) is the most obvious “platform” on which to get elected to this position; and “not making the shareholders money” is usually a quick way to get replaced.

Fact 4. Unlike government elections in America—but like elections in Commonwealth nations—corporate “snap elections” can be triggered at any time from a shareholder vote. This means that a board-member can be removed pretty much instantly if they start to look like they’re not serving the shareholders’ interests.

Fact 5. Members of the board usually want to stay on the board, because it confers advantages. Even if there are no explicit advantages to being on the board, they get the ability to vote in ways that work toward their own personal interests, perhaps even getting themselves sweetheart deals. Even if they don’t go for these, there might be “lobbyists” (internal to the company, from industry-organizational bodies, etc.) that are willing to bribe them to vote certain ways.

And now, the assumption, that tends to hold in cases of publicly-traded companies: shareholders in the company are, by majority, pure investors that want their share value to increase, with some making short-term plays and others going long, but neither all that interested in the company outside of its portfolio value.

Putting the facts and the assumption together, you can derive that the board is structured in such a way, and members of the board are incentivized in such a way, that their behaviour is extremely predictable, operating almost according to an algorithm, rather than acting like a “group of people” with human whims.

This emergent behavior of the group, and the clear algorithmic model that can be used to predict it, are what people mean when they talk about “what corporations want.”

It’s very similar to how a person can want things that are at odds with the “wants” of the cells that compose them (such as doing things like drinking that damage those cells, despite each cell embodying an algorithm that steers toward that cell’s own survival.)

Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#148

Read an idea in American Affairs in support of taxing buybacks. The logic goes that if all companies have a fiduciary duty to shareholders because the market is the most efficient capital allocator, AND all companies are giving their cash back to shareholders, THEN it must be true that the market can not figure out how to efficiently allocate this $1T of capital. Thus, the government should have “next dibs” for items…

They are taxed. If there’s a capital gain when BigCorp buys my stock back, I pay taxes on it. You can argue whether or not Capital Gains is too high or low but the mechanism is there.

Then there’s the question of what I do with the money. If I invest it in government bonds, they get the remainder. Otherwise the money gets recirculated through consumption or other investment.

If you really think companies are too eager to return money to shareholders, take away deductibility of interest. This would dissuade companies from borrowing money to buy shares. (Effectively creating debt from equity)

Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#149
post #99
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is both the companies in question and the ultra-wealthy that are the beneficiaries of the vast majority of these buybacks AREN'T paying taxes, so it's another way for the government to at least attempt to capture the $$ that should already be going into the treasury instead of offshore accounts/subsidiaries/whatever double dutch triple lux tax evasion scheme of the month they're using.

Corporations are paying taxes. US corporate tax receipts as a percentage of GDP are a tick higher than the OECD average. Also, it’s not the “ultra wealthy” primarily benefitting from these buybacks. Most corporate equity is owned by the bottom 99% and pension funds.[1] (Someone with a $5 million retirement account may be very comfortable, but they’re not hiding their money in offshore accounts.) [1] Most corporate eq…

That’s the problem though.

Equity is an entirely imaginary value store. What’s the point of the majority holding all the corporate equity when it goes poof constantly?

80% of last generations Fortune 500s are gone. Retirees and the public were left holding the bag.

Meanwhile, the aristocracy retains generational control of all real assets.

This is another emotional boondoggle, wrapped in numbers to provide some sort of concretized framework. It’s the same old scam:

Load the public up on ownership/stewardship of ephemeral nonsense (previously religion) insulate the most pious/rich.

The bottom will fall out on the value of the equity, they can buy up more of the real property cheap. Rinse. Repeat.

Re: S&P 500 Buybacks Now Outpace All R&D Spending in the US

#150
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying back stock only creates value for shareholders if the stock is trading for less than its intrinsic value. Above that price buybacks destroy shareholder value. Executives are doing this to meet performance targets and get bonuses. Not to allocate capital efficiently.

I don't think I can follow your argument. What's intrinsic value? The market is supposed to arrive at a fair value for a stock (and there's no reason to assume it doesn't because that would create arbitrage opportunities). If you buyback at the fair value no shareholder value is created or destroyed, the only change is in the ownership of the assets and future dividends.

Companies have non public information and therefore can more accurately price the value of their stocks relative to the market than investors can. This may not apply in the long term, but insider trading is illegal due to this information asymmetry.

In the extreme case of a disclosure that will tank the stock price their current investors would be better if the company sold new shares ahead of that announcement. This would then dilute the loss across more investors. Though the ethical issues should be obvious.

Buybacks are simply the opposite of issuing new stock which happens to have tax advantages.

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