Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

kong.cash

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

351–360 of 395 posts

Re: Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

#351

Post by gnode »

siavosh wrote: post #116
ccamrobertson wrote: post #2

Hi folks, I’m one of the contributors at Kong — https://kong.cash/ . Kong is a physical cryptocurrency that looks, feels and works like traditional cash. You can think of it as an ultra-secure, time locked cryptocurrency wallet with a fixed face value — no one can access the token except for the holder of the note after a period of several years. It consists of a secure element and NFC chips mounted on a flexible PCB…

I don't understand any of this.

I'll try to sum it up: Kong notes are electronic devices which allow whoever has access to them to use a smart contract which after a given date can retrieve a given amount of cryptocurrency. They hold a key which allows them to operate on this smart contract, but don't reveal it, and are designed to be physically impractical to tamper with (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_cryptoprocessor).

Re: Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

#352

Post by paulgerhardt »

XMPPwocky wrote: post #315
ccamrobertson wrote: post #2

Hi folks, I’m one of the contributors at Kong — https://kong.cash/ . Kong is a physical cryptocurrency that looks, feels and works like traditional cash. You can think of it as an ultra-secure, time locked cryptocurrency wallet with a fixed face value — no one can access the token except for the holder of the note after a period of several years. It consists of a secure element and NFC chips mounted on a flexible PCB…

A user accepting these "verifies" them by assuming that two properties hold if they connect over NFC or via pogo pins to the "gold elements", send a challenge over this connection, and receive in response the challenge signed with a public key associated with locked Kong tokens. 1. the relevant private key is known to only a Kong note's secure element. this is (hopefully) enforced by the secure element's, uh, securit…

This specific man in the middle attack is risky in that it requires very close range, face to face interaction with your target, a fairly unreliable chance of success, and may only work on one of the four validation mechanisms. If effective the money is unlikely to propagate much further as the next user will fail to validate.

Re: Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

#353

Post by oarsinsync »

paulgerhardt wrote: post #237
CptFribble wrote: post #225

If I can't take your space money down to the diner and buy a plate of bacon and eggs with it, then as far as I'm concerned it's not real. There's a chicken-and-egg problem that I think goes missed or unmentioned by all these crypto startups trying to piecemeal a "solution" to the centralized banking problem: in the monetary system, individuals have absolutely no power, because we're at the bottom of the hierarchy of…

By that definition, any foreign currency isn't real. I might suggest an alternate definition: Money is a transferable record of debt valid for a period of time and amongst a network of peers. Generally we think of money as local to a country and its government. However, one could imagine a 'minimum viable money' that could work in a space as small as a table and with only a handful of people - and for the purposes of…

If I asked you for $10 and you offered me 10 CHF, I'd probably turn you down, as despite 10 CHF being worth more than $10, it's still effectively worth less to me, as my buying power from 10 CHF is significantly lower than it is with $10. I can't pay my taxes with it, I can't buy dinner with it, I can't pay my rent with it. I can't even store it in my bank, I have to pay to convert it first.

I suspect most people (especially in the USA, given how relatively few people even leave the country compared to other western countries) don't consider foreign currency to be real.

Heck, try spending Scottish Pounds in London (UK) and see what responses you get.

Re: Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

#354

Post by manigandham »

paulgerhardt wrote: post #298
manigandham wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For producing new bills? Why does that matter? What do you think will happen if anyone can create new bills?

I'm not sure. Feels like opening Pandora's Box. Historically, taking big centralized things (like the Internet) and letting smaller players participate has interesting results. By taking a technology like printing currency, and innovating in the security domain so non-counterfitability is cryptographically guaranteed I would expect a cambrian explosion in cash-like instruments.

So this is primarily physically currency that is hard to counterfeit? Cash (in the US) already has billions of R&D in defenses to the point that most people will never see it, and centralization ensures that cash is always accepted.

I just don't see why people would switch to something to ensure 100% real bills and lose all the other benefits of cash. How is there going to be a cambrian explosion with an issue that affects almost no one?

Re: Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

#355

Post by paulgerhardt »

fnord77 wrote: post #347
paulgerhardt wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is physical cash is really important to a functioning society. Cryptocurrencies are turning out to be really important but lack a physical cash instrument. Kong marries the two. Kong accomplishes that by minimizing trust down to the chip level - as opposed to the firmware or application level - so we can make these things trustlessly and cost effectively. Something like a Trezor is too expensive and dear to…

> The point is physical cash is really important to a functioning society. Not really. There's a couple northern european economies that are almost entirely cashless.

"Less cash but not cashless" is the motto of those northern european countries.

Both the UK and the Netherlands for instance have issue reports[1][2] to ensure cash does not go away as it serves a vital purpose for protected classes.

[1] https://www.accesstocash.org.uk/media/1087/final-report-fina... - from the UK report "17% of the population would struggle in a cashless society"

[2]https://www.dnb.nl/en/binaries/DNB%20Payments%20Strategy%202... - from the DNB report "While we support the retailers’ and banks’ wish to encourage electronic payments, we do not seek to achieve a cashless society..."

Re: Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

#356

Post by paulgerhardt »

manigandham wrote: post #354
paulgerhardt wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure. Feels like opening Pandora's Box. Historically, taking big centralized things (like the Internet) and letting smaller players participate has interesting results. By taking a technology like printing currency, and innovating in the security domain so non-counterfitability is cryptographically guaranteed I would expect a cambrian explosion in cash-like instruments.

So this is primarily physically currency that is hard to counterfeit? Cash (in the US) already has billions of R&D in defenses to the point that most people will never see it, and centralization ensures that cash is always accepted. I just don't see why people would switch to something to ensure 100% real bills and lose all the other benefits of cash. How is there going to be a cambrian explosion with an issue that a…

This is primarily a demonstration of how cash instruments can be decentrally issued.

Secondarily, it demonstrates how we can move validation from physical properties of cash instruments (such as fine printing and exotic inks) to cryptographic properties.

We believe the latter to be superior and a path to ratchet down the cost overheads that go into securing cash issuance and payment channels.

Re: Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

#357

Post by arcticbull »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #330
arcticbull wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The risks for a cash bill are just counterfeiting. The risks for a Kong bill are both counterfeiting and failure of the secure element from any of a myriad ways, including thermal, mechanical stress, static, and so on. Those failure modes cannot be detected with the naked eye necessitating much more scrutiny. It's far more likely your Kong bill just break taking its value with it into the aether than you receiving a…

Kong bills are far harder to counterfeit than cash bills. Counterfeits non-obvious to the naked eye only require producing a convincing plastic film and hologram. Compromising the secure element to extract the private key requires advanced mechano-electronic skills.

Yes but counterfeit bills are very rare but broken Kong bills will be very common.

Counterfeiting a bill requires special technology and evading the police. Breaking a Kong bill requires putting it into a wallet with too aggressive a fold.

Re: Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

#358

Post by arcticbull »

gnode wrote: post #349
jakelazaroff wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might sway me if they didn't repeatedly refer to it as "cash" on their website.

There's a distinction that Kong is not payable on demand, until after expiry, but I'm not sure it's a useful distinction. Unlike a conventional bond, there isn't a question of default by the issuer; the Etherium is locked up in a smart contract, rather than relying on the issuer honouring the bond at maturation. Rarely do users of cash care about the property of it being payable on demand by the issuer (conventionall…

Here the risk is that the note becomes physically damaged in some trivial way and the value is lost forever. Maybe it's bent too far over in one direction, maybe something heavy falls on it, etc, etc.

Re: Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

#360

Post by arcticbull »

Aeolun wrote: post #332
iamben wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pay with a card at a busy bar in the UK 15 years ago and everyone would sigh as the barman reached for the card terminal, did his thing, waited for you to type in your pin, etc etc. Paying with cash was far quicker. Pay with cash at a bar now and everyone will sigh as the barman counts it up, puts it in the till etc etc. Contactless is so fast, the barman will be pouring the next drinks while you're tapping the machi…

Can they even not accept cash? It’s legal tender anywhere in the UK right?

Legal tender is only required to be accepted for debts already incurred.

For instance, if you are at the bar and they pour you 3 drinks then ask for payment, they have to take your cash.

On the other hand if you are at the bar and, ask for a drink, and they say that'll be $10, they are not required to take your cash (the debt has yet to be incurred) and are also of course not required to provide you that drink if you pull out a $10 bill.

Post reply on HN