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Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

kong.cash

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Re: Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

#101

Post by mrb »

zelly wrote: post #72

IMO this breaks the entire security model of cryptocurrency. If these bills are intended to be spent hand-to-hand in meatspace without cryptographic validation on a computer, then it is no longer a cryptocurrency. It is another paper currency like the U.S. Treasury's. The innovation of Bitcoin was money as a purely digital artifact that cannot be double spent. As a merchant accepting Kong bucks, I have no idea how ma…

I've been working in crypto for 10 years (well, the only "crypto" that existed back then was Bitcoin) and I agree with zelly's criticism.

Another simple flaw of Kong is that when I receive a Kong note, someone could have intentionally fried it with, for example, high voltage on the I2C contacts to damage the secure element without leaving any visible defects. So I need to verify each Kong note I receive by reading them over NFC using a smartphone. Not great for usability.

Re: Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

#102

Post by ccamrobertson »

jiofih wrote: post #61
paulgerhardt wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The imagined usability is like cash. Low denominations notes are glanced at to sure they're intact, high denomination notes are scrutinized more closely. The difference is one can validate these notes with a cryptographic operation rather than a highlighter.

Online validation dissolves you’re anonymity value proposition instantly. Bank notes are recognized as a financial instrument by the government, and have the accompanying legal repercussions to counterfeiting. I expect no such strictness being applied to a private digital token, what exactly de-incentivized someone from going crazy counterfeiting notes? Especially considering their transactions would be anonymous too…

You could cache a list of existing notes directly from an Ethereum node for offline verification; this cached information would work for verification until the claim date in the smart contract.

Correct, there is no secret service that will remove counterfeit Kong which is why you should verify it yourself or only accept it from parties you trust and have attested to previously verifying it. Habits around verification would likely be governed by the prevalence of counterfeits in a local money supply. If I hear about a bunch of 1 Kong notes failing to verify as counterfeit, then I'll likely verify every 1 Kong note before acceptance.

Re: Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

#103

Post by Animats »

From the "white paper":

"An additional 7,340,032 Kong was issued to the Kong project for discretionary Kong noteprinting and distribution. The upper bound for Kong token created after five years (the point at which only the recurring lockdrop rewards remain) is roughly 72,700,000 Kong."

So, the promoters of this skimmed off 10% before launch. Or, more like 20% of the first year's production.

Now, if this was set up so that it's denominated in something they don't control, like Etherium or Bitcoin or dollars or euros or yuan, it would be more interesting.

Re: Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

#104

Post by james_s_tayler »

paulgerhardt wrote: post #58
fatjokes wrote: post #44

Why would drug cartels prefer this over existing cash? I'm phrasing the question facetiously but the underlying intent is there: how is there more anonymity, usability, etc.?

We're not interested in doing business with drug cartels. What is a lovely property of Kong is the only digital breadcrumb is leaves is when notes are loaded at creation and unloaded at de-circulation. Every person to person transaction of the instrument leaves no digital record or footprint. Usability is superior for new users - everyone understands how cash works.

>What is a lovely property of Kong is the only digital breadcrumb is leaves is when notes are loaded at creation and unloaded at de-circulation. Every person to person transaction of the instrument leaves no digital record or footprint.

What problem does that solve for me though? What benefit does that afford me? Why does that matter to me?

Re: Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

#105

Post by elil17 »

paulgerhardt wrote: post #58
fatjokes wrote: post #44

Why would drug cartels prefer this over existing cash? I'm phrasing the question facetiously but the underlying intent is there: how is there more anonymity, usability, etc.?

We're not interested in doing business with drug cartels. What is a lovely property of Kong is the only digital breadcrumb is leaves is when notes are loaded at creation and unloaded at de-circulation. Every person to person transaction of the instrument leaves no digital record or footprint. Usability is superior for new users - everyone understands how cash works.

Except that real cash, in comparison, has no digital footprints. Why the hell wouldn't I just use cash?

Re: Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

#107

Post by cortesoft »

neiman wrote: post #35

I understand many people here, and in the world, don't like cash anymore. But there are many others, like me, that still think that physical money gives them a better feeling of their spending. So in my eyes Kong is a really nice take on the cash technology, not to mention it's beautifully executed.

So why not just use regular cash?

Re: Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

#108

Post by elil17 »

I see so many people here frustrated with the fact that the creators are giving nonsense answers. It's important to remember that this is a money-making scam. Asking them how their technology provides any value to users is like asking a Nigerian prince about the philosophy behind constitutional monarchies.

Re: Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

#109

Post by manigandham »

paulgerhardt wrote: post #100
krick wrote: post #62

I don't get it. Is it some sort of concept art? What's the point? Sure, it can be used as money (assuming what authors say is correct). Virtually any physical items that are hard to fake can be used as money, as long as people believe it's worth something. And if we are okay with complicated and rather expensive manufacturing process (since Kong isn't something you find in the forest), it really is a non-problem to c…

Kong has the useful property of peer-to-peer validation. Most paper currencies printed in your basement don't. Tokens loaded onto Kong Cash instruments and exchanged ephemerally in person between party A and party B are more anonymous than tokens sent directly from party A to party B electronically which will be recorded for everyone to see forever. It's programmable money. It's cooler than non-programmable money. We…

If you're handing off physically then just use cash. How is this any better?

The exit to real currency will always reveal Kong transactions at some point. Real cash is more anonymous because it's seamlessly transacted everywhere.

Re: Show HN: Kong – Physical Cryptocurrency

#110

Post by ccamrobertson »

hadlock wrote: post #33
ccamrobertson wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they look like a bunch of circuit boards under X-Ray, it's pretty cool. We've travelled with "unloaded" Kong thus far (i.e. not backed by token). See section 4.1 on minting in the paper. Even so, we're unaware of any value to the Kong token independent from Kong notes and we are not taking steps to list it on exchanges. If Kong was to become a means of exchange somewhere then it might need to be declared as a mo…

How do they hold up in a saltwater environment? My feitan/yubikey U2F physical tokens are developing rust/corrosion just being on my keychain and being thrown in a drawer on my boat for a couple hours at a time. I2C leads + saltwater environment seems like it may cause some problems.

I doubt this version would hold up well in a salt water environment. The chips will ultimately have a conformal coating leaving only gold contacts which should fare better.

We have considered more robust variants that would fully seal all the components, but this is a v2 problem.

I should add that even a corroded chip should ultimately still be accessible; you might have to pull it off of the bill and decap it.

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