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Simple Rules ‘Bootstrap’ the Laws of Physics

quantamagazine.org

71–80 of 96 posts

Re: Simple Rules ‘Bootstrap’ the Laws of Physics

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Objects with spin can be point-like but carry angular momentum. This is where I get stuck. The particles are all excitations of a quantum field. So what does spin mean in that context?

Excitations can carry dynamical properties. For example, jerk a rope once, and you will see a wave travel down the rope, which carries energy and momentum. If you give the rope a quick twist, the wave carries angular momentum.

I have the same problem with this analogy. The rope itself is just excitations of a quantum field. It feels like there is very little underpinning everything.

Re: Simple Rules ‘Bootstrap’ the Laws of Physics

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As to how the laws got where they are Lee Smolin and Roberto Ungar say that it's possible they were not always the way they are and that they evolved spontaneously over time. And that the spontaneity just is the way things are i.e. there's no explanation for it. At least that's my recollection from reading their book. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Singular_Universe_and_th... The other explanation seems to be th…

> not always the way they are and that they evolved spontaneously over time But how did they get any way at all? How and why do they evolve? > multiverse. i.e. we just got a random set of self consistent laws. This raises even more questions. Why are there any multiverses with any laws at all? From where did the stuff in the multiverses come from? What initiated this chain of multiverse creation, or why is it inevita…

> How and why do they evolve?

Asking "why" is begging the question, though. Maybe there is simply no reason behind it. They change because they change.

Re: Simple Rules ‘Bootstrap’ the Laws of Physics

#74
post #8

The content of the article is very interesting and worth reading, but the framing feels circular. Some laws of nature are fundamental and other laws are inevitable consequences of those laws. If the inevitable laws were not inevitable, then they would be fundamental. As our knowledge and explanatory power grows, some laws that first appeared fundamental have been explained in terms of deeper laws, but we must still a…

I agree that the article plays a little loose with terminology; however, I wouldn't go as far to say that it's a circular argument.

To snitch an example from mathematics, consider formal logic and set theory. These are oft considered the epitome of rigor, enough so that they form "the foundation of modern mathematics." However, when first begining to study these fields, one encounters a sort of philosophical conundrum, "How do you even state the rules if you start from literally nothing?" You can write them on a piece of paper, but without some system of processing, all those rules end up as just ink on paper. The standard terminology for just such a system is "metalogic."

Anyway, at first blush it seems like any such metalogic is inaccesible to mathematical inquiry, but we can use a trick to "lift" the metalogic and logic one layer up. For example, we can (using some metalogic) start with standard Zermelo-Frenkel set theory (ZF), and then ask ourselves, "Is this ZF powerful enough to iplement a version of ZF within itself?" In other words, if ZF is too weak to implement ZF, then clearly out metalogic must be something stronger and more complicated.

Fortunately, it turns out that ZF can implement itself just fine, and in fact, there are much simpler (read weaker) logics also capable of implementing ZF. Said another way, the bare mininum needed to write a program capable of verifying ZF proofs is quite bare and minimal, indeed. Counter-intuitively, perhaps, this line of inquiry has ended up discovering pretty nifty proofs of previously intractible problems. It also has practical implications for proof verifiers and the like (see Metamath[0]).

So, by analogy, I read this article as saying something similar about the metaphysics of our physics. I.e. it turns out that there are some really simple rules capable of generating the complex physics that is the Standard Model. How much can we whittle down the metaphysics? What does that say about our universe?

[0]:http://us.metamath.org/mm.html

Re: Simple Rules ‘Bootstrap’ the Laws of Physics

#75

Sounds to me like the higher order laws of physics are emergent properties of the lower level properties. Is this surprising? Every system in existence is the result of the emergent organisation of lower systems - why would the laws of physics be different?

It is one thing to say that something is plausible, and something quite a bit more to be able to show that not only is it plausible, but also that it is the way things actually are, and in a very specific way.

Re: Simple Rules ‘Bootstrap’ the Laws of Physics

#76
post #8

The content of the article is very interesting and worth reading, but the framing feels circular. Some laws of nature are fundamental and other laws are inevitable consequences of those laws. If the inevitable laws were not inevitable, then they would be fundamental. As our knowledge and explanatory power grows, some laws that first appeared fundamental have been explained in terms of deeper laws, but we must still a…

I agree with this. I've always found theories of everything to be unsatisfying in this way, because they never explain how the laws of physics got the way they are. Assuming the existence of some abstraction called spin to derive the fundamental forces is a great exercise in internal consistency, but hardly meets any definition of "bootstrapping" as I understand the term. The only theory I've ever encountered that pa…

I sort of mentioned this in a parent comment, but think you might get a kick out of this question:

Why modus ponens? [0]

[0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Tortoise_Said_to_Achi...

Re: Simple Rules ‘Bootstrap’ the Laws of Physics

#77
Max Tegmark was on the Sean Carroll podcast recently, talking about the different types of multiverse we could postulate may exist[0]. I found the quanta article fascinating, and I don't believe it's strictly speaking 'circular'. It can also be the case that multiple solutions exist mapping the relationships between a given set of fundamental laws. Prof. Tegmark discusses this in the '4th level' of multiverse which examines whether it's right to talk about a multiverse of all possible mathematically consistent universes.

[0]: https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2019/12/02/75-m...

Re: Simple Rules ‘Bootstrap’ the Laws of Physics

#78
post #58
post #8

The content of the article is very interesting and worth reading, but the framing feels circular. Some laws of nature are fundamental and other laws are inevitable consequences of those laws. If the inevitable laws were not inevitable, then they would be fundamental. As our knowledge and explanatory power grows, some laws that first appeared fundamental have been explained in terms of deeper laws, but we must still a…

Reminds me of the Douglas Adams quote: “This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!'"

Anthropic Principle: "a philosophical consideration that observations of the universe must be compatible with the conscious and sapient life that observes it, and that there is hence a survivorship bias."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

Re: Simple Rules ‘Bootstrap’ the Laws of Physics

#79

Wondering if anyone could recommend a layman's introduction to "spin". I've read the Wikipedia article, I broadly understand it, but just curious as to how it was discovered, why it is considered an "intrinsic" form of angular momentum, and why it is so fundamental a concept in our universe.

Typically, angular momentum is just linear momentum plus an attachment. Imagine two weights spinning around each other in a circle, tied together with a rope. At a moment in time, each weight has some linear momentum, each in the opposite direction. The system has angular momentum because part of it has linear momentum in one direction and another part has linear momentum in another direction. In classical mechanics, it's all like that, with different pieces in different locations moving in different directions. But with a particle, there's only one piece. If it has angular momentum, it's gotta be a property of that piece, instead of the more emergent property of a system made of multiple pieces. Hence "intrinsic."

Re: Simple Rules ‘Bootstrap’ the Laws of Physics

#80
post #43
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Objects with spin can be point-like but carry angular momentum. The electron is one such particle. It is "intrinsic" because it has no known moving parts. If it had moving parts, and that motion had net angular momentum, we would refer to it in many contexts as "orbital angular momentum". Spin should seem counterintuitive. There are no macroscopic objects that I am aware whose spin you can feel with your hands. Our r…

I thought that magnetism is the result of lots of aligned spin?

Magnetic moments, for the (essentially all) particles that have them are aligned parallel to the spin axis, as there isn't any other axis in the problem, but that doesn't mean that there is a direct link between magnetism and spin.

One example: Neutrinos have just as much spin as electrons, but they have not yet been observed to have magnetic moments.

It is true that most magnets get some, if not all, of their magnetism from polarized electrons. We often state that the magnetism comes from "spins", as it is an effective shorthand, but it is not strictly correct. Some magnets get substantial amounts of magnetization from orbital magnetic moments of electrons (SmCo_5, for example).

Furthermore, one can create a magnetic field simply by moving an electric charge. From that perspective, a magnetic field is consequence of combining special-relativity with electrostatics.

We know a lot, but there is so much more left to learn.

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