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Why Child Care Is So Expensive

theatlantic.com

341–350 of 522 posts

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#341
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you care if the country's population drops dramatically? I'm sure many people are fine with that, but if you're a country looking to stay strong economically the math says you'll need to incentivize childrearing somehow. I think subsidized daycare is a great idea as long as it isn't too much of a disincentive for those who want to stay home with their kids. When I was looking into childcare I noticed there were a…

>I think subsidized daycare is a great idea as long as it isn't too much of a disincentive for those who want to stay home with their kids. Why would you be OK with any kind of disincentive to parents staying home with their children? >There are other advantages to group care like being able to spot issues that aren't age appropriate. As a parent I don't have a large sample size for most milestones. "Normal" can have…

> Why would you be OK with any kind of disincentive to parents staying home with their children?

I'm just recognizing the realities of incentivizing anything. There's a difference between a work requirement for both parents and attendance requirement for children and maybe, in some cases, a portion of your income tax would go to a program you don't take advantage of.

> You don't have to dump your children off to be raised by minimum wage daycare workers in order to put them in a group setting.

Where did I say this should be mandatory or that full-time childcare was the best and only option? You're grossly mischaracterizing my position here and the realities of daycare. Part of the reason daycare is expensive, as mentioned in the article, is because of the regulations in place around the environment and staff. I've found group daycare staff are often more qualified than individual nannies.

I would love to see studies because the issues I've seen caught and missed are all anecdotal and do involve tight-knit communities--which not everybody has. The situations I've seen caught did not "rely on the judgment and interest of minimum wage daycare workers" but were done through communication. After discussing an issue between the daycare and parent it would be presented to a pediatrician or other specialist to see if intervention was needed.

> you and your friends and family members can observe the behavior yourselves

Kids act very differently when around primary caretakers and others. Like I said, part of something like daycare would be communicating what you've observed and what they've observed. A select few motivated parents read books and seek out information (often only for their first child), I see a lot of "bad advice" from previous generations. One thing I've seen come up a lot is older generations either don't know, or dismiss, "back to sleep" as a way to minimize SIDS. I also notice that knowledge about children atrophies very quickly. I constantly have to give milestones for my kid; birth weight, when they rolled over, crawled, walked, first word, first sentence. As years pass I have a rougher idea about what's normal and completely forgot about more minor milestones like; parallel play, object permanence, when pronouns should be understood, etc. even when I'm close to other families kids hitting those milestones.

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#342
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be great be apparently current older generations have been brainwashed into thinking that your entire goal for your life is to save for a lavish retirement where you will finally get to enjoy yourself every day after you retire and should have no responsibilities. Which basically equates to- don't enjoy any day until you retire because you are so busy focused on retirement. My parents are like that.. my mo…

The deal works both ways in most Asian societies. Grandparents take care of the grandchildren, children take care of the grandparents. But in the West many children shuffle their folks off to a home. Kind of tragic all around.

I think there are a lot of crappy attitudes around both child care and elder care, but I reject the notion that a child has an obligation to care for their parents. Children don't choose to be born, and any parent that chooses to have kids in part because they want someone to take care of them when they get old is incredibly selfish.

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#343
post #296

A lot of really good discussion in this article. I just wanted to add a couple of things: It is a true blessing if a mother or father can stay at home to raise their children. However, over time being a stay at home parent is incredibly isolating. Men are suseptible to depression, but women especially so post-partum. Also, many parents do eventually want to work either part time or full time. The longer one stays out…

I am convinced the isolated stay at home parent model is not normal human behavior, but a pathology of our particular society which represents an unreasonable expectation derived from an excessive commitment to individualism and independence. It is not psychologically reasonable to expect one person to care for children all day every day. It is not historically or broadly culturally normal. It is not healthy for eith…

This is a weird comment that, in my experience, doesn't represent the reality of today's stay-at-home parents. I'd love to see hard data on this, but let me share my anecdotes in response to the middle paragraph here. My older sister has been a stay at home mother for almost a decade, so I'll share my observations from being an uncle:

> It is normal for children to be cared for by many adults throughout the day, from birth - be they older relatives or simply members of the community.

My sister engages in a community of stay-at-home parents and homeschooling parents (there is a lot of overlap and she also homeschools) to provide her children with socialization and to also share the burden of parenting all the small ones.

By contrast, in daycare, where my sister and mother both worked professionally at different times, it is common for adults to be split between many children, usually as many as seven or eight per adult (by regulation).

> It is abnormal for one person to have to deal with all of their energy and issues.

See above

> It is normal for children to wander and play and experience a wide and varied world. It is abnormal for them to be kept in a small, unchanging indoor space.

Funny that this is an example! Many daycares are inside only or maybe have a small playground. By the time the child is 5, they're expected to sit still in actual school all day! My nephew and nieces get the pleasure of participating in something called "Forest School" where they're able to socialize with other children their age and learn about nature, shockingly, outside in nature. They're also always allowed in the backyard and have friends in their neighborhood as well. So actually from what I've seen, homeschooled kids and kids with a stay at home parent actually get _more_ outside time. It's the poor kids in day care and school that don't get to go outside.

> It is normal for new parents, especially new mothers, to be intensely supported by their community. It is abnormal for them to be left alone unsupported. It is normal for homemakers to accomplish their daily tasks communally and to be active in their communities. It is abnormal for them to endure years of social isolation, primarily spending time with their children.

Again, see above. Maybe this varies a lot by locale, but here in Texas, none of your criticisms actually apply to the community of stay at home moms and homeschoolers that I have observed in my community.

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#344
post #72
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because those states already taxed their citizens to the breaking point. It's much easier to pass it off to the federal government where you can't escape by moving to Florida.

That is interesting. I wonder how other national programs are generally funded (or would be funded, Medicare For All for example). Are they massive wealth transfers from low tax to high tax states?

It has been reliably demonstrated for decades that conservative poor states receive more national (federal) dollars than they pay in to the system. Wealthy states like California and New York recieve less than 95% of the funds they put in. The NASA campus in Huntsville, Alabama was put there for no other reason than to funnel national dollars into the state for decades. Johnston Space Center (i.e. Mission Control for Apollo/Moon, ISS etc) in Houston, until SpaceX built their spaceport in Texas, was built over a thousand miles from the nearest rocket launch pad for similar reasons. Just one example.

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#345

Women's introduction to the workforce was the right thing to happen but it fundamentally hurt labor and the "middle class". You can't double the supply without changing anything in the system and inflationary effects of dual income are ridiculous.

Why don't people say this about population growth? The US population is 2x what it was in 1950. Yet nobody says that this depresses wages causes problems. Would we have a stronger middle class if we Thanosed the population? That doesn't seem right.

> Would we have a stronger middle class if we Thanosed the population?

There is historical precedent for it, see 14th-century Italy after the Black Death halved the population.

https://dailyhistory.org/How_did_the_Bubonic_Plague_make_the...

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#346
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Agreed. There are very few things in life as important as raising one's children well. To say that we should incentivize or otherwise coerce people into outsourcing the upbringing of their own children so they can punch a time-clock is beyond misguided. This same statement can be applied to healthcare (our family's health is one of the most important things we have, why do we outsource it to doctors?) and cooking (…

Comparing raising children to receiving healthcare is absurd. Raising children is an instinct that's hardwired in each of us. Administering healthcare as we do today is a modern technical skill specific to a particular time and place. Regarding your last comment about people not having kids because it's too expensive, while that may be a popular thing to say it's 100% false. As individuals and societies become wealth…

> People are free to have as many or as few kids as they like, but it's silly to argue that money is a barrier when we are living in the wealthiest era in human history.

Around where I live two types of housing are being built:

1. million dollar+ McMansions. 2. Tiny 1 or maybe 2 bedroom apartments for rent.

Of course there is existing housing stock, for around $600k-$800k for a house that is good for raising a family in.

My friends with kids are dumping 10-25k into education, and the ones with younger kids also have to factor in child care.

So, sure, for dual income families earning 300k a year[1], it has never been a better time to have kids.

I'm not going to argue that higher income countries have less kids, of course they do, the higher % chance kids survive the less need there is to have a lot of kids.

But I honestly wonder if people are having as many kids as they want to if economics weren't an issue.

[1]This is not even an exaggeration, for people living in major coastal metros, the quality of life trade-off is either drive 1h to 1.5hrs and have affordable housing, or have a commute that allows for a life and not be able to afford housing that would allow for kids. Those being the two choices society presents is 5 types of bullshit.

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#347
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've got two kids: 15 month old boy, 7 year old girl. With the boy, the toil is literally keeping him from killing himself. If you put him downstairs, he'll try to climb up the stairs. He'll climb on the couch and fall off the other side. He'll drop things in the toilet. He'll try to pull stuff off shelves. He'll climb up the chair onto the dining room table. He is not content to sit and eat. I gave him cornbread yes…

I feel like a lot of this labor is generated by the fact that most kids in america can't go run out and play with other kids in the neighbourhood anymore. Your 7 year old would not be asking for you to endlessly watch her cartwheel and interact with her out of bordem. They would be out playing 24/7 in the local forest, come back for food and boo-boos, be back before dark and be in bed a couple of hours after dinner /…

Kids were not meant to be a lot of work, our society makes them a lot of work.

I think you’re right: in the past, each kid was much less work than they are today. The difference is that you also used to have 6 of them, and used to expect that not all of them might survive to adulthood. This is clearly not acceptable approach in today’s society.

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But, in terms of pure economics, let's put it at an extreme. >Child-care is too expensive, a woman who would otherwise go on to make breakthroughs in medical science stays at home. This sounds like a fun game. Child-care is subsidized. A child who would otherwise have been raised by a loving parent is raised by minimum wage daycare workers who don't care about the child. The child consequently develops antisocial be…

> Child-care is subsidized. A child who would otherwise have been raised by a loving parent is raised by minimum wage daycare workers who don't care about the child. You are assuming massive incompetence on the part of child care workers with no prior evidence. At scale of course saving lives will result in the life of a future criminal being saved, but on the whole the # of good people outweighs the number of bad pe…

>You are assuming massive incompetence on the part of child care workers with no prior evidence.

The fact that they earn minimum wage is evidence of their collective incompetence. The fact that they would not be emotionally destroyed by never seeing the child again when either they leave their job or the child moves on is evidence of their indifference.

>19% of women with a post graduate degree is huge. How many millions of dollars of investment in education is that? If someone wants to leave work then of course they should be allowed, but if they don't and feel they are forced to? That sucks, and it is a net loss for society.

Should we not first ask why they thought it was a good idea to get an advanced degree?

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a house and multiple cars but you can’t go to Disneyland as often as you’d like? Such hardship... barely living...

This is such a dismissive comment and misses the main point. The main point is that these are presumably upper-middle class families. You would expect that with their higher-than-average incomes they would have greater amounts of discretionary income that they would be spending and that their expenses would be spread out across more of the economy, supporting many other businesses and services. Instead the high salar…

The comment is dismissive, but the point stands. The grandparent comment comes off awfully entitled considering all of life’s basic needs seem to be covered and they outright own multiple vehicles in perhaps the highest cost of living area in the United States. Not to mention, the higher proportion of income going toward housing is likely the consequence of protectionist measures to keep the riff raff out and maintain as much status for their children as their income possibly allows. Move to a worse school district and you’re likely to see your housing cost go down by a factor of 50%. Not to mention, the grandparent freely admits to putting money away for the kids, I assume this means college savings of some sort.

I’m making a great deal of assumptions but not being able to go to Disney land at the drop of a hat seems awfully trite.

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#350
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing wrong with not wanting kids. Makes sense. That being said I would recommend toning down the rhetoric of how much better you're off for not having kids - it rings fake and forced as if you needed to convince yourself repeatedly and it is needlessly antagonistic. The analogy is that of having a dog. I'd like to have a dog. I think it is fun to have a dog. Alas, dogs are not for me, they feel the kind o…

> That being said I would recommend toning down the rhetoric of how much better you're off for not having kids We could also entertain the reverse: that too much emphasis and pressure is being put on someone being a parent. There is a very widespread self-congratulatory element to being a parent (to the point that many people list it as a job title). But having children is something that people have been doing quite…

I'd like to chime in and agree with this, but perhaps with a bit of a different twist. There are tons of reasons why people are pressured into having kids, and very few people reminding others that having children is a choice, not to mention a huge responsibility. I think we'd have a much happier, safer world if the only people who had kids were those who truly wanted them. Parental, spousal, and peer pressure to have children is very real and very strong, but IMO has no place in being a part of that decision.
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