Why Child Care Is So Expensive • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#271

Post by com2kid » Mon, Dec 09, 2019, 10:08 PM UTC

petra wrote: post #253

com2kid wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is one of those cultural ideas embedded in XXI Century logic which only does harm and transmits the wrong message: people’s life is as valuable as the money the work or the “job” they have, and of course, caring for the family is not a proper job. First off, what if someone doesn't want to be a stay at home parent? Why force traditional values on them? But, in terms of pure economics, let's put it at an extrem…

I'm not sure . In a very large share of people work either in bullshit jobs or unnecessary jobs or are replacablable. On the other hand, if children would get more love,maybe more of them would grow to be exceptional?

The problem is there is no easy way to know in large swaths what jobs are BS or unnecessary.

And of course someone could have a BS job and then later move on to a job that does have an impact!

Trying to evaluate the worth of people is pretty much futile, and whenever it has been attempted there have been huge negative outcomes.

And even during less extreme historical circumstances, it is just expensive to do, the recent example being drug testing for welfare recipients. The cost to do the drug testing far exceeded the money the government saved denying benefits.

In the end being non-judgemental and treating people equally turns out to be a rather economically efficient solution.

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#272

Post by pfranz » Mon, Dec 09, 2019, 10:09 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #179

Unpopular opinion - but I think farming out the majority of the raising of children to daycares is a bad idea in the long term. Obviously some times you don't have a choice, but I think stay-at-home moms (or dads) are extremely valuable for the development of the child and potentially worth more than any monetary gains to be had from dual-income. Yeah, you might not be able to afford a nice house or car as quickly, b…

I think those are two separate ideas. I agree we shouldn't have a culture of "farming out" childrearing, but I disagree offering childcare options has to encourage that. I think in any case, we need work environments more sensitive to work/life balance.

A lot of parents who chose to stay at home described having multiple young kids as chaos and "just trying to survive." I also get, "It's just so nice to talk to adults." Higher end communities offer a lot of options for temporary childcare; daycare programs that are 2-3 hours, gyms, and groceries offering childcare while you're there that seem specifically focused on stay at home parents. Those aren't options for most people.

Just an hour or two break can really help recharge, or just plan appointments or outings. If you're lucky enough that they sleep through the night or nap, you're still tethered to the house. I really think doing things outside of a relationship helps make parenting more fruitful, but since being a parent is 24/7 you just don't have options unless you have a strong network and are willing to ask/pay for help.

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#273

Post by gwbas1c » Mon, Dec 09, 2019, 10:10 PM UTC

ben7799 wrote: post #194

I live in Massachusetts.. mentioned in the article as averaging $16k. I have a child who stopped going to private day care a year and a half ago. For us it was more like $20-24k/yr for child care. There were centers near one of my workplaces that were more like $35-40k/yr/child. Anything near the trendy high tech office spaces in Boston/Cambridge is going to be in that > $30k/yr/child range. I think there are nice pr…

I live in MA, and I've used in-home daycare.

My current provider is a husband and wife team, and they aren't getting rich. (They charge $50 / day.)

Previously, I used an in-home provider where she ran a smaller in-home daycare, and her husband had an engineering job. They (household) had more money than my wife and I did. Ironically, even though she charged $55 a day, because she provided all food, it was "cheaper" due to time saved on our end.

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#274

Post by aidenn0 » Mon, Dec 09, 2019, 10:10 PM UTC

thu2111 wrote: post #263

legitster wrote: post #41

It really comes down to the ratio. Our state has a 4-1 ratio for infants (which is entirely reasonable). You are basically paying for 1/4 of a person's time. If you want to put them into a daycare where the worker is adequately paid, that's $6000 a year alone, let alone overhead costs for facilities/admin. No matter who pays for it, raising children is time consuming. And time is becoming more valuable.

I wonder how the ratios are decided. 4:1 sounds pretty generous. There are families out there with stay at home mums that have 5 kids, and the mothers there have to do housework too. So the government is mandating here the child:carer hour ratio is better than some actual families. Do infants actually need the kind of attention these ratios imply? What happened to the era when families with lots of kids would just le…

Infant != kids.

Twins are quite stressful for mothers, and 4 infants would be like having quadruplets. Usually the ratios continue to rise as the children get older. Here's California's rules, for example. From kindergarten (66 months age on average) and up it's 14:1

- Infants (birth to 18 months old) -1:3

- Toddlers (18 months to 36 months old) -1:4

- Preschool (36 months to enrollment in kindergarten) - 1:8

- Children enrolled in kindergarten through 14 years old - 1:14

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#275

Post by jkeuhlen » Mon, Dec 09, 2019, 10:10 PM UTC

thu2111 wrote: post #263

legitster wrote: post #41

It really comes down to the ratio. Our state has a 4-1 ratio for infants (which is entirely reasonable). You are basically paying for 1/4 of a person's time. If you want to put them into a daycare where the worker is adequately paid, that's $6000 a year alone, let alone overhead costs for facilities/admin. No matter who pays for it, raising children is time consuming. And time is becoming more valuable.

I wonder how the ratios are decided. 4:1 sounds pretty generous. There are families out there with stay at home mums that have 5 kids, and the mothers there have to do housework too. So the government is mandating here the child:carer hour ratio is better than some actual families. Do infants actually need the kind of attention these ratios imply? What happened to the era when families with lots of kids would just le…

Most of those families with multiple kids don't have 5 infants, but rather ages of the children are spread out. The ratio GP is talking about is, I believe, a limit so that infants are not neglected due to lack of time on the caretakers part. Infants do need lots of care and attention specifically during early development.

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#276

Post by decebalus1 » Mon, Dec 09, 2019, 10:13 PM UTC

godot wrote: post #269

decebalus1 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I understand what the quote means but, honestly, this is one of the big wrong points of our society: that caring for the children full-time is NOT being part of the workforce. I see it more as a way of self-sufficiency and financial independence from the spouse. I believe one of the wrong points in our 'free' society is that it's perfectly acceptable to basically rely on your spouse for financial stability. That is…

> I believe one of the wrong points in our 'free' society is that it's perfectly acceptable to basically rely on your spouse for financial stability. That is a frequent source of abuse, resentment, unfulfilled dreams, and the regular 'i raised MY kids' narrative during divorce proceedings etc.. But here's the opposite view point: as parents, both my spouse and I would rather have either myself or my spouse be a full…

you're talking temporary solutions. I was responding to permanent solutions.

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#277

Post by novok » Mon, Dec 09, 2019, 10:15 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #148

josinalvo wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you be more specific? What is the nature of this toil?

I've got two kids: 15 month old boy, 7 year old girl. With the boy, the toil is literally keeping him from killing himself. If you put him downstairs, he'll try to climb up the stairs. He'll climb on the couch and fall off the other side. He'll drop things in the toilet. He'll try to pull stuff off shelves. He'll climb up the chair onto the dining room table. He is not content to sit and eat. I gave him cornbread yes…

I feel like a lot of this labor is generated by the fact that most kids in america can't go run out and play with other kids in the neighbourhood anymore.

Your 7 year old would not be asking for you to endlessly watch her cartwheel and interact with her out of bordem. They would be out playing 24/7 in the local forest, come back for food and boo-boos, be back before dark and be in bed a couple of hours after dinner / night time with an 8 or 9pm sleep time and a 6am wake time.

Kids were not meant to be a lot of work, our society makes them a lot of work.

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#278

Post by arbuge » Mon, Dec 09, 2019, 10:15 PM UTC

"One side effect of “the end of babies”—or, less dramatically, the steady decline in fertility rates around the world—is that today’s parents spend more time and money on the few kids they do have."

Might that be a cause of declining fertility rates rather than a side-effect of it?

To me it seems pretty logical that some parents in a position to use birth-control to limit the size of their families would decide to do so, given the costs of child care.

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#279

Post by rjsw » Mon, Dec 09, 2019, 10:17 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #208

ChaosDegenerate wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm totally ignorant in all of that, but for me it just looks like out of sudden (historically) we have way too many males. They used to be killed during hunting, wars, competition with other males. Since 1945 we haven't had that. Men became not as hot commodity. This is the motor of the current social changes, isn't it? For example: only 40% of all Homo Sapiens Sapiens males that have ever lived were able to have of…

Your statistics would have 2 women to 1 male making the "norm is one male one female in marriage with children" completely impossible absurd standard.

Doesn't have to be at the same time, think of the case of a first wife dying during childbirth and father remarrying and having more children.

Re: Why Child Care Is So Expensive

#280

Post by jedberg » Mon, Dec 09, 2019, 10:18 PM UTC

novok wrote: post #277

rayiner wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've got two kids: 15 month old boy, 7 year old girl. With the boy, the toil is literally keeping him from killing himself. If you put him downstairs, he'll try to climb up the stairs. He'll climb on the couch and fall off the other side. He'll drop things in the toilet. He'll try to pull stuff off shelves. He'll climb up the chair onto the dining room table. He is not content to sit and eat. I gave him cornbread yes…

I feel like a lot of this labor is generated by the fact that most kids in america can't go run out and play with other kids in the neighbourhood anymore. Your 7 year old would not be asking for you to endlessly watch her cartwheel and interact with her out of bordem. They would be out playing 24/7 in the local forest, come back for food and boo-boos, be back before dark and be in bed a couple of hours after dinner /…

Unfortunately for those of us who want to parent this way, we risk having the authorities called on us, because the other parents watch too much local news.

It's much safer to be a kid now than when I was growing up, but the news makes it seem like it isn't. I would let my seven year old walk to the park by herself, 1/2 a mile away, if I wasn't afraid of having the cops show up.

When I take her to the park now, I let her play on the structure about 100 yards away, within my line of sight. And still adults will come up to her and ask her where her mommy and daddy are.